Going for the snip

[Asher]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
"In fact, since his circumcision, Chelgak (a Jew from Ukraine who was circed as an adult) has had only good things to say about it. Not only does he say he feels healthier -- recent reports point to a lowered incidence of AIDS and certain cancers among circumcised men -- but even his sex life has improved, he said."

Well, there we have it. Justification after he was willingly mutilated, even to the point of clear nonsense such as "feels healthier"

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Asher


Well, there we have it. Justification after he was willingly mutilated, even to the point of clear nonsense such as "feels healthier"

you got anecdotes, I got anecdotes.

He wasnt mutilated. He lost a part that was not essential, as HE testifies. So you disparage even voluntary adult circ. And you wonder why i suspect you want to ban it?

Heres another story:

"The Covenant

Rabbi Israel Spira

The following story was told by Rabbi Israel Spira, the Rebbe of Bluzhov, who witnessed it in the Janowska Concentration Camp:

Each morning at dawn, the Germans would lead us out of the camp for a day of hard labor that ended only at nightfall. Each pair of workers was given a huge saw and expected to cut its quota of logs. Because of the horrendous conditions in the camp and the starvation rations on which we were supposed to subsist, most of us could barely stand on our feet. But we sawed away, knowing that our lives depended upon it; anyone collapsing on the job or failing to meet his daily quota was killed on the spot, G-d forbid.

One day, as I pulled and pushed the heavy saw with my partner, I was approached by a young woman from our work detail. The pallor of her face showed her to be in an extremely weak physical state. "Rebbe," she whispered to me, "do you have a knife?"

I immediately understood her intention and felt the great responsibility that rested upon me. "My daughter," I begged, concentrating all the love and conviction in my heart in the effort to dissuade her from her intended deed. "Do not take your own life. I know that your life is now a living hell, from which death seems a blessed release. But we must never lose hope. With G-d's help, we will survive this ordeal and see better days."

But the woman seemed oblivious to my words. "A knife," she repeated. "I must have a knife. Now. Before it is too late."

At that moment, one of the German guards noticed our whispered conversation and approached us. "What did she say to you?" He demanded of me.

We both froze. Conversing during work was a grave transgression. Many a camp inmate had been shot on the spot for far lesser crimes.

The woman was first to recover. "I asked him for a knife," she said. To my horror, she then addressed her request to the guard: "Give me a knife!"

The German, too, guessed her intention, and a devilish smile flickered on his lips. Doubtless he had seen the bodies of those who, out of desperation, threw themselves during the night on the electrified fence that surrounded the camp; but this would be a novel sight for him. Still smiling, he reached into his pocket and handed her a small knife.

Taking the knife, she hurried back to her work station and bent over a small bundle of rags that she had placed on a log. Quickly unraveling the bundle, she took out a tiny infant. Before our astonished eyes, she swiftly and skillfully circumcised the week-old boy.

"Blessed are You, G-d our G-d, King of the Universe," she recited in a clear voice, "Who has sanctified us with His commandments and commanded us to enter him into the covenant of Abraham our Father."

Cradling the child in her arms, she soothed his cries. Then, she addressed the heavens: "Master of the Universe! Eight days ago you gave me a child. I know that neither I nor he will long survive in this accursed place. But now, when you take him back, you will receive him as a complete Jew."

"Your knife," she said, handing the holy object back to the German. "Thank you.""

[Asher]

I don't want to ban circumcision. There are some medically warranted issues that are rectified by circumcision. I've also made clear that I do not oppose circumcision done for religious reasons.

What I do not like is people who don't do it for religious nor medical reasons. They do it out of habit, or because of misinformed ideas that it's better for the child.

The foreskin is there for a reason. It has multiple valuable medical uses to the body, though is not essential for life. That doesn't mean we should cut it off for the hell of it.

And the overwhelming "anecdotal evidence" or "hearsay" offered by men who have been circumcised in adulthood is one of loss of sensation. In fact, years ago when I had a similar problem as Snoopy did, the doctor (a specialist, FWIW) told me circumcision was a last resort because it results in significant desensitization of the penis.

[Mrs. Tuberski]

Originally posted by notyoueither


You seem to be indifferent to mutilation of male babies.

I find the indifference offensive.

If you had good reason to be for it, I could see it, but 'I don't care', from a medical professional, let alone a human being, is a wee bit o' a piss off, for me.

How about we commence wide-scale female circumcision? It'll help with promiscuity and hense cut down on AIDS. What the hell should I care that people are being mutilated in the name of public health? I don't have one and nothing you can say will change my mind because it's just hear-say.

NYE you seem to have this opinion that i have a freaking choice in this matter. Im not a dr, but rather a nurse. I have no decesion power in any of this, i simply am assigend to do as im told and take care of said patients. The i dont care attitude is because i dont care if u are circed or not. Im sorry if u are offended but my care of u as an infant, or patient isnt going to change due to the decesions of said parents and physcians. I can tell u and try to teach what im told, but it is u as an adult patient, or parent to follow the instructions of the dr. As for my hearsay and for child birth i said fine u can belive what u wasnt tht is the choice of the listner to believe what they are hearing. Woman just like men may or may not be stretching the truth. I cant answer for all, or for that matter any of them. And for the record last i checked in certain civilizations like in africa women are removed of their clitoris because for women it is not for pleasuer, the sex orgasns, but for procreation so u tell me how that is fair.

[Mrs. Tuberski]

Im sorry if you guys think im indifferent
i cant do a thing in a professional setting but follow the drs orders. If i do it is called practing medicine with out a license and im not willing to be brought up on criminnal charges for that.

[Ben Kenobi]

It's funny that supporters of circumcisions discredit their own case by citing so many studies, all of which have contradicting results

Yes, it is very interesting. You have shown here that anyone can go onto the net and find a study that supports their argument. It doesn't make the study or poll true.

All you have shown is that you can find support for your own personal opinion. Bravo.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Yes, it is very interesting. You have shown here that anyone can go onto the net and find a study that supports their argument. It doesn't make the study or poll true.

All you have shown is that you can find support for your own personal opinion. Bravo.

... which means there's no reason to routinely circumcise boys. There is no reason, at all. All studies saying it's a benefit for _____-- has a counter-study or ten saying the opposite.

The people on this site -- and you know who you are -- that emphasize studies for ridiculous medical reasons for routine circumcisions are definitely in the wrong, and they are also definitely not supported by any pediatric society I've been able to find. Canadian, American, etc... all of the pediatric societies do not recommend routine neonatal circumcisions.

When in cases of elective surgery like this, for it to be common practice and the rule rather than the exception there needs to be scientific evidence that the benefits outweigh the risks. This is not the case.

That is my point. And if you and your comrades would stop dancing around the tribal circumcision-is-fun-for-everyone pole you'd be better off looking more into the matter. Dr. Strangelove especially, because it's deeply disturbing how little he apparently knows about the current state of circumcision study.

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
But the notion that its the equivalent of a clitorectomy is absurd. what percentage of the folks in your study said there was NOT a difference in sensation? Think youd find the same for clitorectomies? IIUC women whove had clitorectomies cant orgasm. At all.

While they are different in the level of damage they do, there are a number of similarities.

Female genital mutilation is, quite properly a legal issue. Circumcision must not become so.

If female clitorectomies may be a legal issue then why cannot male circumcision?

[Asher]

I'm a bit confused why female circumcision is referred to as "female genital mutilation", but people get upset when male circumcision is referred to as "male genital mutilation".

They are both quite clearly genital manipulation, so apparently the differentiation is only because genital manipulation "sounds bad" (hey, it is) while "circumcision" sounds routine...

[asleepathewheel]

Originally posted by Asher
The head of the penis is the most sensitive part of the body, by far. In an uncircumcised penis, the foreskin covers this head, protecting it from excessive contact with clothing and other constant stimuli that results in dullened sensitivity ("callousness").

more sensation=premature ejaculation

(at least for me, I would imagine, I hold no illusions of myself in that regard)

[Mrs. Tuberski]

Kh i am going toassume it cant because. men are giving the choice to have a circ done. Females in certain socities are not given that choice it is done with out their consent. Infants are not of an age to give legal consent to any thing. neither are teenagers. Those are the laws set before u by the courts. Drs and nurses have no choice really but to abide by the parents of minors and the patients decesions.
As a physician, as dr strangelove is im surre he can and must get tired of treating the same patient over and over after repeated instructions and teachings, for asomething that can be prevented. Just because a non circed person never has had an infection doesnt mean others havent. It gets tiresome and tedious after a while. I for one have seen on numerous occasions through my career at least a dozen men numerous rime come into the clinic i worked at for the same infection. and after them choosing circumscision we didnt see them again for that problem. You folks thatsarent in medicene have to realize we are obligated to give you more then one option of treatment, if there is one, if not then we can be sued for malpractice, by you the patient that does not, or has not followed our instructions and teachings. I will say that as a nurse, i cant count how many times i have given the instructions to new mothers on the care and cleaning of the penis of their newborn sons. I would hope that these mothers and fathers would continue to instruct said son as he gets older, if they dont how does it become my problem they didnt and as an adult he needs this procedure?
Asher said the key word, the foreskin provides moisture to the tip of the penis. You are talking of an area that is considered not clean to begin with and bacteria loves moisture to grow.

[Mrs. Tuberski]

I know some of you are gonna come back with what if the want a life threating procedure, that is unnecessary. Well i can tell you that the patient is informed of the risks and complications. in the end it is the patients decesion. And if the Dr feels personnally the procedure is to risky he will not do it. And as sad as it is if the patient wants it bad enough he will search for a DR that is willing to do it. And there aredrs that will do anything for aabuck

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by asleepathewheel


more sensation=premature ejaculation

(at least for me, I would imagine, I hold no illusions of myself in that regard)

Apparently not.

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by Mrs. Tuberski
Kh i am going toassume it cant because. men are giving the choice to have a circ done.

Who the hell was talking about adult circumcision being a legal issue?

LotM was talking about circumcision in general. The only obvious legal issue in my mind arises when a child of either sex is mutilated deliberately. I'm more than happy to give adult men and women the right to make the choice for themselves, though I will also feel free to give them some advice (as I did for snoopy).

I suggest you read before you post.

[KrazyHorse]

I didn't go into this argument thinking that there should be a legal ban on circumcisions performed on minors for non-medical reasons, but now that I've seen the weakness of the arguments against it, I'm beginning to wonder...