The Chechen Dilemma

[Drogue]

Originally posted by Kidicious
Give them independence? Would we give someone who went into a school and killed as many children as they could freedom in our own countries? No. We kill them or put them in prison.

Yes, and likewise, if any of the terrorists were still alive, I'd love to see them killed or locked up. Would you kill or lock up everyone who believed something, just because someone who believed that went into a school and killed as many children as they could?

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Drogue

Yes, and likewise, if any of the terrorists were still alive, I'd love to see them killed or locked up. Would you kill or lock up everyone who believed something, just because someone who believed that went into a school and killed as many children as they could?

When you consider giving a group of people the power to make their own rules and build their own armies you have a responsibility to the world, especially in this day. You have to judge the Chechens by the action of the Chechens. They want autonomy. They are a political group. They have to be judged my their group action, and their group action is killing many children.

[Drogue]

Originally posted by Kidicious
When you consider giving a group of people the power to make their own rules and build their own armies you have a responsibility to the world, especially in this day. You have to judge the Chechens by the action of the Chechens. They want autonomy. They are a political group. They have to be judged my their group action, and their group action is killing many children.

I disagree, I think we need to gove them independance to see how they use it. What they do when fighting for independance and what they do in power can be two very different things. I believe every nation should have autonomy if it wants it, unless there is evidence that they want to attack another sovereign nation.

The same way even being British I support a referendum for an independant Northern Ireland. I don't just the cause for independance by the actions of the IRA, and I consider the Chechen's to have far more provocation (being killed by Russians) than the IRA, when it comes to violence. Let the people of that area decide, unless they are going to attack another nation, in which case stop them.

[Serb]

Originally posted by LDiCesare
I was talking about war. Don't tell me that Russians didn't cause any child to die. Now I apologize as what I said is far too harsh. Terrorism is bad, but the fact is that the west doesn't understand the war waged by Russia against Chechens. Serb's refusal to explain doesn't help. You know and could explain, but don't. You say they are terrorists, sure they are. But why did they become such? It looks like their country is invaded and they are defending themselves in a desperate way. If their economy is wrecked and most of them are being killed, it's understandable that they retaliate.
I ment to say: If you do not explain why this war is waged, then it looks like that you are invading an independant nation for no good reason. As you point out, media are biased and don't give much info about the Russian point of view. Explain us instead of insulting. Otherwise you look like racists committing a genocide, if it's an all out war on both sides, and that includes killing children, and yes that's bad and horrible, and in such a case you'd deserve what you get (should have put the conditional in the first place):
. (http://hrw.org/wr2k4/7.htm#_Toc58744956) No children there?
So please explain the situation so we can undesrtand what Russia is trying to accomplish in this place. I never heard of rebuilding for instance or helping the economy

If you never heard about rebuilding it's your own troubles. Russians already invested sh!loads of money in reconstruction of Chechnya and keep to rebuild it, becuase it's a goal number one to fully reconstruct the republic (to decrease reqruiting pool for terrorists by decreasing number of poor people), but it demands both huge investments and time.
I perfectly realize that many children and civilians were killed during war. Many German children and civilians have been killed by Russians during WW2 when they fought nazis on their way to Berlin. Many Iraqis children and civilians have been killed by Americans in Iraq. It is sad that inoccent die during war, but does it make all wars unjust?

So you want to hear a Russian story? Ok then, I'll do it again, despite I already did it a thousand times.

It's all started after collaps of the Soviet Union. The econmy of enire USSR laid in ruins before 1991. When in 1991, USSR collapsed, it made things even worse, since economic ties of the former Soviet republic were broken. Already poor people became even poorer. It's a perfect situation for radicals of any kind, esp. nationalists and religious extemists, since it's in human nature to blame people of other nationality and religion in their own troubles.
So, after collapse of the USSR in Chechnya (the autonmus republic inside the former Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic, which has now became a successor of USSR and being called Russian Federation) general Dudaev took the power. As typical fascist d!ckhead, I mean dictator, he encouraged ethnic and religious tensions and started to pump up his army. Soon he declared independence and started a blood bath there. The most popular slogan was - "kill Russian dogs", since Russians and Chechens never liked each other, desipte there were living nearby for centuries. And people there start to fulfill the wish of their ruller. There were rivers of blood, rapes, fences decorated by non-Chechen and Christians entrails and heads, public shootings on central square of Grozny in front of video cameras, etc. A real f*cking blood bath. Everyone who was able - escaped the republic.
Then Eltsin who is responsible for this blood bath, at the first place by letting Dudaev to took the power, and who did nothing while he was pumping up his army, ordered to Russian forces to enter Chechnya. Thus first war started. Dudaev declared a Jihad, a holy war and fight for independence and most of the Chechens supported him. Another blood bath started. Eltsin plan to quickly defeat the rebels failed. And rebels started a full scalle partisan warfare. With such incompetend leadership as Eltsin and Chernomyrdin who didn't allow military to do their job and constanly interferenced by giving absolutely opposite orders after short periods of time- like - storm the Grozny, then when it's almost captured- withdraw from there, after some time- storm it again etc. the war has been really screwed up for Russians.
People in Russia mostly weren't aware what the hell was going on in Chechnya before the war and weren't aware what the hell is going on there now, why this war started and why they have to send their sons to fight for Chechnya. Eltsin popolarity was lower 4%. In 1996, Eltsin had to win presidental elections and his popularity was about zero. There was a real possibility that communist's candidate would win the election. He gathered all oligarhhs leaded by Boris Berezovsky, get some big bucks and get some serious support from the west via PR specialists and other f*ckers. This bunch of *******s started a massive PR compaign that should be considered as true gold of brainwashing. One of the points of his "programme" was to end the Chechen war. After success of this brainwashing campaign he was re-elected and appointed Berezovsky's pupet general Lebed as chief of Security Concil of Russia and Berezovsky himself as assistant of chief of Russia's Security Concil. After elections, in 1996 Lebed and Maskhadov signed a Hassaviyurt treaty which said that all Russian military and police forces should immidiently withdraw from Chechnya, Russia should pay war reparations and status of Chechnya remains uncertain untill 2001. In other words it was a humilating capitulation and de-facto confirmation of independence of Chechnya.
All Russian forces were withdrawn from there. Kremlin lost any control over the region, and had to pay reparations within five years. They had all atributes of independent country- flag, hymn, their own army, their own police, their own KGB, their own everything. No Russian constitution anymore, instead of this they establisheb Sharia law, with death penalties for gays, marital infidelity, etc, with such penalties for thievery as cutting of hands, etc. In other words- fine code of medieval laws. They also established embassies all around the world. Esp. close relations they had with the Taliban regime, It's not surprising since the Taliban was their brother in faith and arms, their sponsor and a shining example for them. In short, they invented nothing new during creation of their soverign state- they just copied their state from the Taliban's state. And the Taliban soon became first and the only country which recognized Chechnya as independent state. In 1996-1999 Chechnya became home sweet home for all kinds of international motherf*ckers who flooded the region. Most of them were vahhabites who came there seeking for new souls to corrupt. Vahhabism was spreading across Chechnya. Despite between 1996-1999 Russia paid billions of bucks, once again BILLIONS $$$, their government didn't build a single school or hospital. Their leader Maskhadov just said to his people that there will be another war soon and that he bought more weapons instead. The motherf*ckers worldwide sponsored thier brothers in arms too, but they also demanded some action for this. Action means- do harm to unfaithfull- Russians. And all those d!cks local, and foreign who created their camps and bases on Chechen territory start to attack Russia. They blew bombs in trains, markets, subway stations, etc. Another most profitable bussines of new leadership of Chechnya was kindapping and slavery. They stolen people from all corners of Russia, brought them to Chechnya, and held them for ransom or just used as slaves. Every warlord's (or so-called ministers of so-called government of Chechen republic) had in his house a pretty unique feature for 20th century- a tortue chamber and a slave's chamber. Thousands of Russian citizens were killed and turned to slaves between 1996-1999, while de-facto Chechnya was independent. In 1999 they blew up several appartment buildings in Moscow and some other Russian cities. Several hundrends of sleeping civilians died. In the same year the army lead by so-called minister of defense of Chechen republic- Shamil Basaev invaded neighbour Russian respublic Dagestan. It was a declaration of war and a limit brake for Russia. Putin said- no f*cking way, not this time, f*ckers. Russians get their crap together and wiped terrorist arses. Locals after three years of vahhabites regime were WAYYYYYYYY more friendly to Russians. Some of them, who didn't accepted vahhabite's teachings, joined Russians in fight against vahhabites. Soon whole Chechnya was under control of Federal forces. Russians state institutions were restored. On referendum about 1 year ago, Chechens approved new constitution of the republic which says that Chechnya is autonomus republic of Russian Federation, elected their new president Ahmad Kadyrov, who was a main mufti of Chechnya and a spiritual leader of Chechens during first Chechen war, and who fought Russians (and kill Russians) during first war, but didn't accepted the vahhabism and after seeing what vahhabites made with Chechnya in 1996-1999, joined Russians in war against them. Life started to get back to normal, very slowly, but still. Such situation was unacceptable for remaining terrorists and thier foreign sponsors, and they continued to do the only thing they could do- they continued to terrorize people inside and outside of Chechnya. In 2002 Maskhadov and Basaev prepared an attack agaisn Moscow's theater on Dubrowka, where about 1000 people came to watch musical. Over a hundred of them died, They exploded a new buildings of government of Chechen republic in grozny, murdered president Kadyrov, blew up hell knows how many bombs inside and outside Chechnya that killed thousands with those years. One of that bomb exploded recently near Moscow's subway station and if not police officer it would blow inside and there would be not 10 victims but hundreds. Two boms exploded in airplanes killing about 100 people. And finnaly they've captured a school in Beslan and killed over 300 people over 150 among them were children.
That's the Russian story. Russians are fully justified in second war. It was a self-defence. A self-defence against monster whose name is terrorism and religious extremism. Anyone who whine abbout opression, freedom fighting, etc, just do not know a thing about what was going on here in Russia between 1996-199 when Chechnya was de-facto independent. They don't know a thing what kind of terror was there, when our houses were exploding one by one, in different cities, when our citizens were captured and turned to slaves. How terrorist torutred them to death, how they cut their throats while laughing. One of foreign reporters who witnessed liberation of slaves in Chechnya by Russian specnaz, said something like this- "man, they look worse than the victims of nazi's death camps".
To bad you prefer to read balh...blah...blah...freedom fighters..., blah...blah...blah... articles of bull****ers who sponsored by Osama and his Chechen brothers in arms.

Chechen people made their clear choice- they voted for constitution that says Chechnya is part of Russia. They really didn't have much choice, because they knew what the alternative is- a Taliban type state where they lived for three years and enjoined all sweet fruits of this state, such as right to be sold and bought like an animal or the right to be beaten to death by stones for cheating your husbant.
No illusions here, I think most of them would preffer to live in independed state. But it would not happen, we have enough of their independence and we know what they are doing when become independent- they keep attacking and invading Russia.

No f*cking way, thank you very much.

End of story.

[Kidlicious]

We already see how they use it. This is islamic fundamentalism here. The world isn't just at war against terrorism. We're at war against islamic fundamentalism. No war can be won against an enemy if you don't even acknowledge that enemy. No states for them.

[Serb]

They want a huge Khalifate part of which supposed to be a former territory of Russian Federation from Chechnya up to Tatarstan and beyond, insead they'll get huge problems. There is no way will surrender without a fight, and since they've started to kill our children for purpose, we became really angry.
Death to f*ckers!

[LDiCesare]

Thanks for that story, Serb. I again apologize for what I said.

[Ben Kenobi]

My pastor has a long-tem mission out in Chechenya, converting Muslims to Christianity. Apparently, he has had considerable success. He spends three weeks out of every year over there, and we help keep the mission going.

Given that Willingdon is a Mennonite church, something like this will ease the troubles, since they don't go out to force Muslims to convert, but rather, appeal to the poor and dispossessed, that there are better ways out of their situation than violence.

They see the Christians, and how well they are doing, so they start to come over.

Very few missions to the Muslims succeed on the part of the men, because men in Islam have way more advantages than they do in Christianity. But some of them are seeing the bitter fruits of the violence in Islam, and have converted.

[Uncle Sparky]

Serb - I rarely take time to read the long posts, but your's was worth it. What happened was outragous and I understand your pain.

With the tradition of blood libel, is there a solution ? ...

[Ted Striker]

Originally posted by Serb

If you never heard about rebuilding it's your own troubles. Russians already invested sh!loads of money in reconstruction of Chechnya and keep to rebuild it, becuase it's a goal number one to fully reconstruct the republic (to decrease reqruiting pool for terrorists by decreasing number of poor people), but it demands both huge investments and time.
I perfectly realize that many children and civilians were killed during war. Many German children and civilians have been killed by Russians during WW2 when they fought nazis on their way to Berlin. Many Iraqis children and civilians have been killed by Americans in Iraq. It is sad that inoccent die during war, but does it make all wars unjust?

So you want to hear a Russian story? Ok then, I'll do it again, despite I already did it a thousand times.

It's all started after collaps of the Soviet Union. The econmy of enire USSR laid in ruins before 1991. When in 1991, USSR collapsed, it made things even worse, since economic ties of the former Soviet republic were broken. Already poor people became even poorer. It's a perfect situation for radicals of any kind, esp. nationalists and religious extemists, since it's in human nature to blame people of other nationality and religion in their own troubles.
So, after collapse of the USSR in Chechnya (the autonmus republic inside the former Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic, which has now became a successor of USSR and being called Russian Federation) general Dudaev took the power. As typical fascist d!ckhead, I mean dictator, he encouraged ethnic and religious tensions and started to pump up his army. Soon he declared independence and started a blood bath there. The most popular slogan was - "kill Russian dogs", since Russians and Chechens never liked each other, desipte there were living nearby for centuries. And people there start to fulfill the wish of their ruller. There were rivers of blood, rapes, fences decorated by non-Chechen and Christians entrails and heads, public shootings on central square of Grozny in front of video cameras, etc. A real f*cking blood bath. Everyone who was able - escaped the republic.
Then Eltsin who is responsible for this blood bath, at the first place by letting Dudaev to took the power, and who did nothing while he was pumping up his army, ordered to Russian forces to enter Chechnya. Thus first war started. Dudaev declared a Jihad, a holy war and fight for independence and most of the Chechens supported him. Another blood bath started. Eltsin plan to quickly defeat the rebels failed. And rebels started a full scalle partisan warfare. With such incompetend leadership as Eltsin and Chernomyrdin who didn't allow military to do their job and constanly interferenced by giving absolutely opposite orders after short periods of time- like - storm the Grozny, then when it's almost captured- withdraw from there, after some time- storm it again etc. the war has been really screwed up for Russians.
People in Russia mostly weren't aware what the hell was going on in Chechnya before the war and weren't aware what the hell is going on there now, why this war started and why they have to send their sons to fight for Chechnya. Eltsin popolarity was lower 4%. In 1996, Eltsin had to win presidental elections and his popularity was about zero. There was a real possibility that communist's candidate would win the election. He gathered all oligarhhs leaded by Boris Berezovsky, get some big bucks and get some serious support from the west via PR specialists and other f*ckers. This bunch of *******s started a massive PR compaign that should be considered as true gold of brainwashing. One of the points of his "programme" was to end the Chechen war. After success of this brainwashing campaign he was re-elected and appointed Berezovsky's pupet general Lebed as chief of Security Concil of Russia and Berezovsky himself as assistant of chief of Russia's Security Concil. After elections, in 1996 Lebed and Maskhadov signed a Hassaviyurt treaty which said that all Russian military and police forces should immidiently withdraw from Chechnya, Russia should pay war reparations and status of Chechnya remains uncertain untill 2001. In other words it was a humilating capitulation and de-facto confirmation of independence of Chechnya.
All Russian forces were withdrawn from there. Kremlin lost any control over the region, and had to pay reparations within five years. They had all atributes of independent country- flag, hymn, their own army, their own police, their own KGB, their own everything. No Russian constitution anymore, instead of this they establisheb Sharia law, with death penalties for gays, marital infidelity, etc, with such penalties for thievery as cutting of hands, etc. In other words- fine code of medieval laws. They also established embassies all around the world. Esp. close relations they had with the Taliban regime, It's not surprising since the Taliban was their brother in faith and arms, their sponsor and a shining example for them. In short, they invented nothing new during creation of their soverign state- they just copied their state from the Taliban's state. And the Taliban soon became first and the only country which recognized Chechnya as independent state. In 1996-1999 Chechnya became home sweet home for all kinds of international motherf*ckers who flooded the region. Most of them were vahhabites who came there seeking for new souls to corrupt. Vahhabism was spreading across Chechnya. Despite between 1996-1999 Russia paid billions of bucks, once again BILLIONS $$$, their government didn't build a single school or hospital. Their leader Maskhadov just said to his people that there will be another war soon and that he bought more weapons instead. The motherf*ckers worldwide sponsored thier brothers in arms too, but they also demanded some action for this. Action means- do harm to unfaithfull- Russians. And all those d!cks local, and foreign who created their camps and bases on Chechen territory start to attack Russia. They blew bombs in trains, markets, subway stations, etc. Another most profitable bussines of new leadership of Chechnya was kindapping and slavery. They stolen people from all corners of Russia, brought them to Chechnya, and held them for ransom or just used as slaves. Every warlord's (or so-called ministers of so-called government of Chechen republic) had in his house a pretty unique feature for 20th century- a tortue chamber and a slave's chamber. Thousands of Russian citizens were killed and turned to slaves between 1996-1999, while de-facto Chechnya was independent. In 1999 they blew up several appartment buildings in Moscow and some other Russian cities. Several hundrends of sleeping civilians died. In the same year the army lead by so-called minister of defense of Chechen republic- Shamil Basaev invaded neighbour Russian respublic Dagestan. It was a declaration of war and a limit brake for Russia. Putin said- no f*cking way, not this time, f*ckers. Russians get their crap together and wiped terrorist arses. Locals after three years of vahhabites regime were WAYYYYYYYY more friendly to Russians. Some of them, who didn't accepted vahhabite's teachings, joined Russians in fight against vahhabites. Soon whole Chechnya was under control of Federal forces. Russians state institutions were restored. On referendum about 1 year ago, Chechens approved new constitution of the republic which says that Chechnya is autonomus republic of Russian Federation, elected their new president Ahmad Kadyrov, who was a main mufti of Chechnya and a spiritual leader of Chechens during first Chechen war, and who fought Russians (and kill Russians) during first war, but didn't accepted the vahhabism and after seeing what vahhabites made with Chechnya in 1996-1999, joined Russians in war against them. Life started to get back to normal, very slowly, but still. Such situation was unacceptable for remaining terrorists and thier foreign sponsors, and they continued to do the only thing they could do- they continued to terrorize people inside and outside of Chechnya. In 2002 Maskhadov and Basaev prepared an attack agaisn Moscow's theater on Dubrowka, where about 1000 people came to watch musical. Over a hundred of them died, They exploded a new buildings of government of Chechen republic in grozny, murdered president Kadyrov, blew up hell knows how many bombs inside and outside Chechnya that killed thousands with those years. One of that bomb exploded recently near Moscow's subway station and if not police officer it would blow inside and there would be not 10 victims but hundreds. Two boms exploded in airplanes killing about 100 people. And finnaly they've captured a school in Beslan and killed over 300 people over 150 among them were children.
That's the Russian story. Russians are fully justified in second war. It was a self-defence. A self-defence against monster whose name is terrorism and religious extremism. Anyone who whine abbout opression, freedom fighting, etc, just do not know a thing about what was going on here in Russia between 1996-199 when Chechnya was de-facto independent. They don't know a thing what kind of terror was there, when our houses were exploding one by one, in different cities, when our citizens were captured and turned to slaves. How terrorist torutred them to death, how they cut their throats while laughing. One of foreign reporters who witnessed liberation of slaves in Chechnya by Russian specnaz, said something like this- "man, they look worse than the victims of nazi's death camps".
To bad you prefer to read balh...blah...blah...freedom fighters..., blah...blah...blah... articles of bull****ers who sponsored by Osama and his Chechen brothers in arms.

Chechen people made their clear choice- they voted for constitution that says Chechnya is part of Russia. They really didn't have much choice, because they knew what the alternative is- a Taliban type state where they lived for three years and enjoined all sweet fruits of this state, such as right to be sold and bought like an animal or the right to be beaten to death by stones for cheating your husbant.
No illusions here, I think most of them would preffer to live in independed state. But it would not happen, we have enough of their independence and we know what they are doing when become independent- they keep attacking and invading Russia.

No f*cking way, thank you very much.

End of story.

Finally, somebody puts all the pieces together, instead of a bunch of soundbites.

Some of you guys don't get it. The Russians did everything they could to make right the situation.

"Leave the poor Chechens alone, they deserve independence, it's Russia's fault."

Well they GAVE them independence, dumbasses, for a few years, and DID leave them alone. So what did they do? Setup a Taliban state and rain terror down on thousands of innocent Russians.

You would think when you give people independence that they would leave you alone, but that's not what happened in Chechnya. In fact just the opposite occured.

Americans, how would you like it if we took all the members of Al Queda and just dumped them in Montana? Because that's the equivalent of what happened in Chechnya.

And you just want the Russians to leave the situation alone?

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by PLATO


While I agree with this in principle...

From the article:

You've been had.

a) All exit polls were banned

b) These "exit polls" were carried out by the very same groups who wanted Chavez out.

Now stop being a conspiracy theorist and accept that the election was carried out fairly as certified by international observers


Given the situation I believe that there is at least cause for concern. [/QUOTE]

[Ted Striker]

Commies want to proclaim their rigged elections as fair but shoot down everyone else's.



I guess they take things where they can...

[The Emperor Fabulous]

Perhaps the Venezuela discussion should be had elsewhere...you know, someone could just make their own thread on the subject...

[Ted Striker]

You are more than welcome to...

[The Emperor Fabulous]

You would think when you give people independence that they would leave you alone, but that's not what happened in Chechnya.

Well that's not ENTIRELY true...Russia gave autonomy but claimed Chechnya as its territory. Its as if Great Britain had given autonomy to India but retained India as its territory: it just doesn't fly with the people who live there.

In fact just the opposite occured.

And the Russians lost between 1,100 and 3,000 soldiers. Estimates of Chechen civilian casualties number above 50,000 (the Chechens say its over 60,000).