The Chechen Dilemma

[Dr Strangelove]

Getting back to the subject, the people of this region already have had experience with the kind of state that the Chechen rebels want to form. Back in '99 they had an autonomous government that was Taliban style and which invaded neighboring regions. Independence is out of the question.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Kidicious
There were day care centers in the towers, but I see your point. I'm really pissed about this too, and I'm not Russian.

IIRC most of the children killed during the 9/11 attacks were in the airplanes.

[NeOmega]

Originally posted by Lancer
I was damn mad on 9-11. However, they hadn't gone after a school with hundreds of little children. Think again, can you imagine? If I'm a 46 year old Russian, I'm lining up at the army recruiting, demanding an AK47 and a unit.

I don't know... Russia has such complex politics. I am not sure if everyone is going to rally to war.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Lancer
So, aside from us getting on a plane for Russia, forming up into some funky squad of west coast flakes... My only point is that Russia is about to go to war, whether they know it or not, their people will give them no choice. When they do, if they go about it as Russians always do, well I'll support them as what they are giving is better than what they got, and better than their enemies deserve.

Our enemies...

We need to start putting some seriously funky pressure on the world Muslim community in order to encourage them to put pressure on militant Muslims where ever they're found. The man in the Casbah has to start thinking that this is his war too or the radicals are going to get him into some serious trouble.

[Ted Striker]

Which won't work. There are plenty more where they came from.

Which IS working, bombings have not been a problem until this week, when the bus bomb exploded.

[Ted Striker]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove


We need to start putting some seriously funky pressure on the world Muslim community in order to encourage them to put pressure on militant Muslims where ever they're found. The man in the Casbah has to start thinking that this is his war too or the radicals are going to get him into some serious trouble.

Once again, Doc speaks wisdom.


They need to start taking care of their own. This works wonders, as witnessed recently when Sistani told Sadr to cut out the nonsense.

As long as sympathizers who aren't actually involved in the terrorist acts turn a blind eye, they are just making things worse for themselves.

[Ted Striker]

Originally posted by Agathon
Yes, the anti-Chavez Venezuelan press can't accept the result. We all know that.

So freedom of the press is a good thing only when you agree with it?

[Uncle Sparky]

The "Chechen situation" has been going on ... IIRC since the 13th century when Islam became dominant in the area much to the annoyance of the Muscovite Principalities.

It started about the same time as the "Irish problem". Amnesty International has found a huge number of abuses by the Russian government and military in the Chechen area. Prior to 9/11, the US and EU regularly criticized Moscow for detaining, torturing and killing civilians in Chechnya. Currently, since the Kremlin is part of the War on Terror, they have been given carte blanc to do what the will with pro-independence Chechens - after all, they are all terrorists by the new criteria.

Russians were also given minimal info over the state controlled media of the event - Putin has been portrayed as a great hero. I wouldn't be surprised if the Kremlin staged the whole thing in Beslan.

What happened was appalling. If it had happened in Europe or North America, I wouldn't be surprised if the death toll had been minimal - but the Russians are that poorly trained and organized. But I don't think the west should support a genocidal war against the Chechens.

I also think the west should take a serious look at other leaders in the War on Terror - specifically Pakistan, Turkmenistan and Uzbeckistan. There strongmen have also been given free reign by the west to eliminate any opponents by branding them terrorists.

[vovan]

Originally posted by Uncle Sparky I wouldn't be surprised if the Kremlin staged the whole thing in Beslan.

Right, and Bush staged 9-11 so people would forget about the struggling economy for a little bit.

[Uncle Sparky]

Originally posted by vovan


Right, and Bush staged 9-11 so people would forget about the struggling economy for a little bit.

... you compared Dubbya to Putin,... not me !

I agree it would be despicable, but would you put it past Putin ? Besides, the Kremlin has near absolute control of the Russian media; I suspect they will spin this into horrible reprisals.

[Ned]

What genocidal war? Similar to what the Arabs are doing to the black Africans in the Sudan?

[vovan]

Originally posted by Uncle Sparky
I agree it would be despicable, but would you put it past Putin ?

I would put it past any civilized person in their right mind. And Putin, if anything, is definitely in his right mind. So are the Chechens, problem is, they aren't civilized. Not in the Western sense of the word any way. Consider this: what did the terrorists want? They demanded Russian troops to leave Chechnia. To arrange that, they demanded for the president of Osetia (the republic where Beslan is located), and the president of Chechnia to be present at the negotiations. The former (together with Putin) was on site promptly. The Chechen president? He said **** it, and stayed put. Oh well, guess they don't want the troops out that much.

[Uncle Sparky]

Originally posted by Ned
What genocidal war? Similar to what the Arabs are doing to the black Africans in the Sudan?

Similar to what the Arabs militias, backed by the US supported Sudanese government have been doing since the 1970's ? Similar, yes. In Sudan, there is limited viable land and there has always been a black/Arab conflict, especially in times of drought. Putin is trying to reestablish an imperial Russia, and squashing descent is important to control. In 1991, about the same time as Bylorus, Latvia etc. were breaking away from the solviet empire, Chechnya peacefully declared independence. Some elements within the population, probably well under 1%, have now resorted to terrorism.

So, are some of you advocating a Simon de Montfort solution - "Kill them all - God will know His own?" If there is such a thing as an innocent Chechen, maybe they should be killed just in case ?

[Agathon]

All exit polls carried out on the day had given the opposition an advantage of between 12 percent and 19 percent.

No they didn't. The opposition had their own "exit polls". This was illegally reported in the Independent while the referendum was ongoing.

This prat refers to "evidence" which isn't forthcoming. I searched recent news stories and there is nothing about this - it's a non starter by a bitter bunch of ****** who can't accept that their time of lording it over the majority of Venezuelans is at an end.

If they try any of their violent fascist **** again, I'll support Chavez if he has them all expelled from the country. These people are anti-democratic scum.

Who are you going to believe? The people who mounted a military coup against the democratically elected government, and then tried to bring the economy to its knees to force a result? The people who use their media outlets to spread lies about Chavez and publicly call him a ******? I've seen irrefutable evidence of the crap they spew.

Or Chavez, who has been pretty scrupulous about democracy? He hasn't banned the opposition media, despite their 24/7 campaign of hate and lies about him.

Chavez isn't much of a communist by the way, he's more of a Social Democrat/New Dealer. But why let that get in the way of subverting democracy.

[Serb]

Originally posted by Uncle Sparky
The "Chechen situation" has been going on ... IIRC since the 13th century when Islam became dominant in the area much to the annoyance of the Muscovite Principalities.

Oh really?
I see you're an expert. 13th century, my ass. In 13th century Moscow didn't care a thing about spread of Islam in Cucasus, I doubt they a care a thing thing about Cucasus at all. They were more worried about Mongol's invasion.

It started about the same time as the "Irish problem". Amnesty International has found a huge number of abuses by the Russian government and military in the Chechen area. Prior to 9/11, the US and EU regularly criticized Moscow for detaining, torturing and killing civilians in Chechnya. Currently, since the Kremlin is part of the War on Terror, they have been given carte blanc to do what the will with pro-independence Chechens - after all, they are all terrorists by the new criteria.

Russians were also given minimal info over the state controlled media of the event - Putin has been portrayed as a great hero. I wouldn't be surprised if the Kremlin staged the whole thing in Beslan.

Listen smartass, I've spent my entire life in Russia. I was born in USSR. I remember when its collapsed. I remeber what Chechens did prior first war. What they did was genocide of non-Chechen population of Chechnya. To your knowledge Chechnya have been populated by non-Chechens too before early 90's when most of them were killed or were lucky enough to run away from thier homes. All cities in Chechnya were build by Russians who came there 200 years ago. Their capital tooks its name from Russian fortress Groznaya. You know nothing about Chechens, their history, mentality and traditions. You have no idea why Russians came there at the first place in 19th century, you have no idea, what happened there in 90's of the 20th century. You have no idea what happened there after first war when they gained independence from Russia and created Taliban-type state in 1996, you have no idea why Russians came there again 1999, you have no idea what's going on there now, all what you know- Russians are always wrong, because they're f*ckers and everyone who kill Russians are heroes.

What happened was appalling. If it had happened in Europe or North America, I wouldn't be surprised if the death toll had been minimal -

You mean in Europe and North America bomb explodes differently? It's Russian climate what make explosives more lethal?
IIRC, some years ago few crazy teenagers turn thier school into blood bath and FBI and police could't do a thing about it. In Beslan operated 30 proffessional killers with heavy armamenets and explosives, who came there with only one goal- to kill everyone and who spend hell knows how many time to prepare this operation. Despite explosion Russians saved more than 70% of hostages.

but the Russians are that poorly trained and organized.

I believe a unit of poorly trained and organized Russian stroibat would be enough to conquer Canada.

But I don't think the west should support a genocidal war against the Chechens.
I also think the west should take a serious look at other leaders in the War on Terror - specifically Pakistan, Turkmenistan and Uzbeckistan. There strongmen have also been given free reign by the west to eliminate any opponents by branding them terrorists.

Who cares about what you or your presidents, queens, whatever think?
We were attacked and we will win this war alone, since you, the west, are on terrorist's side. So put your enlighted western thoughts into enlighted western ass.