The Chechen Dilemma

[Ben Kenobi]

Better tell Hugo to get his state apparatus together to prevent a similar tragedy.

[Al B. Sure!]

don't yall hate extremists? the Chechens were in the right this whole time. They were being oppressed by the Russians when they should have been given their independence with the collapse of the USSR. The russians were doing them very wrong.

unfortunately, the Chechen extremists just burned all their bridges with this one. The hostage situation in that theater a year ago was bad enough but this? what good for the Chechens could possibly come out of this? are they just being fatalistic?

[Agathon]

Hugo don't need rig elections, he win them, handsomely.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Albert Speer
don't yall hate extremists? the Chechens were in the right this whole time. They were being oppressed by the Russians when they should have been given their independence with the collapse of the USSR. The russians were doing them very wrong.

unfortunately, the Chechen extremists just burned all their bridges with this one. The hostage situation in that theater a year ago was bad enough but this? what good for the Chechens could possibly come out of this? are they just being fatalistic?

Yeah. I think everyone does, and they did do some serious damage to their goal and the strength of any future independent nation.

[Agathon]

Yeah. I think everyone does, and they did do some serious damage to their goal and the strength of any future independent nation.

Like the IRA?

They'll keep pulling this crap until some settlement is reached, if past experience is any guide.

[Ben Kenobi]

Hugo don't need rig elections, he win them, handsomely.

Would you happen to be interested in this lovely bridge I have to sell?

[Ted Striker]

Originally posted by Agathon


Like the IRA?

They'll keep pulling this crap until some settlement is reached, if past experience is any guide.

Or it could go the way of Hamas, where the leaders are being systematically exterminated.

Knowing the Russians, I would think scenario number 2 is more likely.

[Agathon]

Would you happen to be interested in this lovely bridge I have to sell?

You've been had Ben. The recent referendum was certified as fair by the international observers. In fact, it's quite likely that the opposition petition which started the referendum only managed to make the signature limit by forging signatures (which is what Chavez had claimed) since they got nowhere near the same amount of votes in the referendum.

Or it could go the way of Hamas, where the leaders are being systematically exterminated.

Which won't work. There are plenty more where they came from.

[Ben Kenobi]

The recent referendum was certified as fair by the international observers. In fact, it's quite likely that the opposition petition which started the referendum only managed to make the signature limit by forging signatures (which is what Chavez had claimed) since they got nowhere near the same amount of votes in the referendum.

Charge/counter-charge, eh?

Well, this is what I've heard.

Evidence of an electoral fraud is growing
Enrique ter Horst IHT Wednesday, August 18, 2004
Chávez and the vote

CARACAS The perception that a massive electronic fraud led to President Hugo Chávez's mandate not being cut short in the recall referendum on Sunday is rapidly gaining ground in Venezuela. All exit polls carried out on the day had given the opposition an advantage of between 12 percent and 19 percent. But preliminary results announced by the government-controlled National Electoral Council at 3:30 a.m. gave Chávez 58.2 percent of the vote, against 41.7 percent for the opposition.
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At first people scratched their heads in disbelief, including many Chávez supporters, but accepted these figures after César Gaviria, secretary general of the Organization of American States, and former President Jimmy Carter said their own quick counts coincided with the electoral council's figures. Two days after the referendum, however, evidence is growing that the software of the touch-screen voting machines had been tampered with. The opposition has requested that the votes be recounted manually and that the boxes holding the voting papers, currently stored in army garrisons, be put under the custody of international observers.
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Chávez had to be dragged kicking and screaming into holding the presidential recall referendum, even though it had been provided for by his Constitution. He was conscious that two-thirds of the people opposed his Cuban-inspired "revolutionary project" and his autocratic, aggressive style.
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Two petitions were necessary to overcome the electoral council's tricks and delaying tactics. After the second petition was declared valid, under strong national and international pressure, and after having poured billions of dollars into social programs, Chávez accepted that the referendum be held Aug. 15.
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The electoral council has stated that the voting machines were audited after the vote, but the council did so in the absence of any opposition representative or any international observer. A cause for even greater concern is the fact that the papers the new machines produced confirming the voter's choice - which the voter had to verify and then drop into a closed box - were not added up and compared with the final numbers these machines produce at the end of the voting process, as the voting-machine manufacturer had suggested.
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Evidence of foul play has surfaced. In the town of Valle de la Pascua, where papers were counted at the initiative of those manning the voting center, the Yes vote had been cut by more than 75 percent, and the entire voting material was seized by the national guard shortly after the difference was established.
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Three machines in a voting center in the state of Bolivar that has generally voted against Chávez all showed the same 133 votes for the Yes option, and higher numbers for the No option. Two other machines registered 126 Yes votes and much higher votes for the No. The opposition alleges that these machines, which can both send and receive information, were reprogrammed to start adjudicating all votes to the No option after a given number of Yes votes has been registered.
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Although the Organization of American States and the Carter Center have called the election free and fair, their quick count justifying this statement was also based only on the numbers provided by the voting machines. The two organizations had brokered an agreement to examine, in the presence of government and opposition representatives, a sample of 150 voting points chosen at random. A comparison of the results printed out by these machines with the papers contained in the corresponding boxes was to be concluded this week. But the opposition now wants all machines and ballot boxes to be examined.
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This is not just another election in a country where political actors abide by democratic rules and civilized behavior. It is an election where a choice of society is being made, and where one side is prepared to use any method to remain in power, even elections if it is assured of "winning" them.
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Enrique ter Horst, a Venezuelan national, is a lawyer and political analyst in Caracas. A former assistant secretary general of the United Nations, he headed the UN peacekeeping operations in El Salvador and Haiti, and was the UN Deputy High Commissioner of Human Rights.

[Agathon]

Yes, the anti-Chavez Venezuelan press can't accept the result. We all know that.

[Fake Boris]

BK stop being a loon. Chavez was in advance in the surveys jsut a few days before the referendum.

[Ben Kenobi]

Yes, the anti-Chavez Venezuelan press can't accept the result. We all know that.

Two days after the referendum, however, evidence is growing that the software of the touch-screen voting machines had been tampered with. The opposition has requested that the votes be recounted manually and that the boxes holding the voting papers, currently stored in army garrisons, be put under the custody of international observers.

Seems a valid complaint.

What's Chavez afraid of?

[Agathon]

I have no objections to a recount, but there needs to be evidence of tampering.

The opposition are foaming-at-the-mouth, anti-democratic nutcases who've already tried a military coup. Mere accusations aren't enough, they need some sort of real evidence.

[PLATO]

Originally posted by Agathon
I have no objections to a recount, but there needs to be evidence of tampering.

The opposition are foaming-at-the-mouth, anti-democratic nutcases who've already tried a military coup. Mere accusations aren't enough, they need some sort of real evidence.

While I agree with this in principle...

From the article:

All exit polls carried out on the day had given the opposition an advantage of between 12 percent and 19 percent

Two days after the referendum, however, evidence is growing that the software of the touch-screen voting machines had been tampered with

Evidence of foul play has surfaced.

Given the situation I believe that there is at least cause for concern.

[Ben Kenobi]

The opposition are foaming-at-the-mouth, anti-democratic nutcases who've already tried a military coup.

As opposed to the calm and collected Commies?