The Chechen Dilemma

[Serb]

Originally posted by Sprayber
Weither or not the chechens deserve independence isn't important. A significant portion seems to want it. The question becomes how much pain Russia is willing to endure and what measures they are willing to implement to keep Chechnyia apart of the Russian Federation. Apparently some Chechens are willing to comment terrible acts of violence against the weakest members of Russian soceity.

What is Russia willing to endure? What is Russia willing to do. The chechens have made it pretty clear that they are willing to do.

Are you sure it were Chechens?
Over 90% of population of Chechnya came to elections and bulk of them voted "yes" for new constitution of the republic which says that Chechnya is autonomus republic of Russian Federation. Those people are tired of war and they do not want to live in Taliban-type state again.
If you think that those 32 motherf*ckers who captured school in Beslan and slaughtered children there represent entire Chechen people, that they did it for independence of Chechnya, that by commiting such acts, they fight for freedom of Chechnya, THEN how do you explain, that this gang consisted of "peoples" of ten nationalities, that 1/3 of this gang were Arabs and Chechens weren't absolute majority of this group?
All those Arabs, Ossetins, Ingushes, Kazakhs, Uzbecs, etc did this becuase they are in fact Chechens who fight for freedom of their country, OR perhaps because they are part of worldwide religious extremist group which declared Jihad versus unfaithfull heretics (the rest of civilized world)?

[Ned]

Sprayber, where do you get the idea that "a significant" portion of Chechens want independence? Was there a poll recently conducted in Chechnya?

Serb, is Russia about to change sides and join with the US in the war on terror?

[Ted Striker]

Change sides?

They were fighting it long before we even declared it.

[Ned]

Ted, They are fighting a "local" war while the problem is much larger. On the international stage, they support France and together they have done much to hamstring the US efforts. I think it is about time that Russia dumps Chirac in favor of the US so that we can begin cooperating in this war.

[Ted Striker]

Chirac

USA-Russian alliance

[Serb]

Ned,
Putin thought about bombardments of terrorist camps on Afghanistan territory before 9/11 and offered to Clinton to launch a joint military action agaist the Taliban before 9/11. Russia covertly supplied Northern Alliance who fought against Talibes with ammo, supplies and even tanks and other heavy armaments for years.
After 9/11, if you remember, Russia fully backed US in their attack agaist Taliban and offered help- we shared intelegence information, some of your forces were supplied directly through Russian territory, we also let you establish military installation in ex-Soviet republics- our backyard and our sphere of influce. Without clear "yes" from Moscow, non of the presidents of Middle Asia ex-Soviet republics would let your forces into their territories, since we have a treaty about collective defese with them and in general such things aren't allowed. But we did it, we've send them clear "yes" signal, despite we don't like the idea about presence of US army, in ex-Soviet republics, right near our borders very much. We fully backed you in Afghanistan, becuase it was a right move, and absolutely justified move and it was in our national interests as well. The Taliban supplied Chechen terrorists with money, weapons, and soldiers. It was in our interests to destroy this regime and it was indeed a fight agaist terrorism what US did in Afghanistan. And we are thankfull for destruction of the Taliban regime. But Iraq is a different case. No WMD were found, no links to Al-queda was found. Iraq was indeed a dictatorship, but Osama likes Saddam no more than he likes Bush or Putin. Saddam was evil, but he wasn't an Al-queda's friend.
I also think that our countries should fight on the same side, and I think they already do. It's our common enemy and both our countries suffered from terrorism too much. We should work together, whole civilazed world should work together to defeat this new menace,

but it doesn't mean anyone should violate international laws and use war on terror as smoke screen to reach their own goals, such as cheap oil, for example
Anyway, thanks for your support and solidarity during hostage crisis. We really apreciate that.

[Serb]

Originally posted by Ned
Ted, They are fighting a "local" war while the problem is much larger. On the international stage, they support France and together they have done much to hamstring the US efforts. I think it is about time that Russia dumps Chirac in favor of the US so that we can begin cooperating in this war.

The problem is indeed much larger. The international terrorism is like a fricking hydra with many heads, but a single body. We were fighting only one head of this beast and it doesn't helps much, because if at least a single head remains it resurects other heads. But sad reality is that Russia isn't a super power anymore. Technically a single Russian strategic bomber/missile cruiser/nuclear submarine have more than enough guided missiles to turn any terrorist camp to dust anywhere, but who would allow us to bomb those f*ckers worldwide? USSR could said- f*ck it and bomb away and if needed could fight alone agaist the rest of the world. Modern Russia can't.
What needs to be done, I think, is a global anti-terrorist treaty, which all countries of the world should sign. The treaty which says that terrorism is pure evil and a real threat to humanity and all goverments promise to do not give any aid to terrorists, any shelter, that they should destroy all terrorist camps on their territories, otherwise consequences should be serious. We need a global, joint anti-terrorist forces under UN banner. If some country violate the treaty and hides terrorists on their territory, this global anti-terrorist force should take action and destroy those camps. I can assure you Russians will prefer to eat grass and wear rubbish clothes, but supply this force with volunteeres and our best (and as you all know from my previous posts, Russian weapons really kicks ass) weaponry.
After Beslan it's the matter of our national pride.
There should be no country on Earth where terrorists could feel safe. That's the only way to win this war, I think.

[Sprayber]

Originally posted by Ned
Sprayber, where do you get the idea that "a significant" portion of Chechens want independence? Was there a poll recently conducted in Chechnya?

Yes Ned there was and enough thought it was a good enough idea to begin a uprising/rebellionuse your favorite word here. But if you don't want me to use the word significant I'll not use it just for you ok. Meanwhile the fact that Russia still is going to have to decide what it will can put up with and what it is willing to do.

[Sprayber]

Originally posted by Serb


Are you sure it were Chechens?
Over 90% of population of Chechnya came to elections and bulk of them voted "yes" for new constitution of the republic which says that Chechnya is autonomus republic of Russian Federation. Those people are tired of war and they do not want to live in Taliban-type state again.
If you think that those 32 motherf*ckers who captured school in Beslan and slaughtered children there represent entire Chechen people, that they did it for independence of Chechnya, that by commiting such acts, they fight for freedom of Chechnya, THEN how do you explain, that this gang consisted of "peoples" of ten nationalities, that 1/3 of this gang were Arabs and Chechens weren't absolute majority of this group?
All those Arabs, Ossetins, Ingushes, Kazakhs, Uzbecs, etc did this becuase they are in fact Chechens who fight for freedom of their country, OR perhaps because they are part of worldwide religious extremist group which declared Jihad versus unfaithfull heretics (the rest of civilized world)?

You never answered the question or even problably thought about it. Apparently there are enough mother****ers out there to cause Russia a sinigificant amount of pain and obviousely there has been little progress in the past ten years. And yeah you just named another big problem for you. Arab recruits are now going up there and fighting, as if they don't have enough hellholes to fight in.

So the question remains the same. What is Russia willing to endure and willing to do to the chechens in order to fight the problem. Cause your not going to "win" just like The US is not going to "win" the War on Terror without some radical and very messy options. Remember the Israelies? With all that they have done they are ruduced to building a wall. Without some kind of fundemental shift in muslim preceptions no one is going to win anything.

[Serb]

What do you suggest, surrender, laid down and die?

[Sprayber]

Originally posted by Serb
What do you suggest, surrender, laid down and die?

Killing everyone seems to be the more popular method

[Serb]

Terrorists must die, otherwise all non-terrorists will die. You can't be nice with terrorists, you can't negotiate with them, you can't give them something what they want and be sure that they will be nice now, they understand only force. They are not nice people, and you know what? They absolutely do not care about your or anyone else life, if you or anyone else are not one of them and do not fight for their goals. Anyone who isn't one of them is simply a dust, a pile of ashes. Those beasts know no mercy, as they demostrated recently.
THEY ARE NOT HUMANS. ANY PERSON WHO CAN COMMITE SOMETHING LIKE BESLAN IS NOT HUMAN. Human being can't act like this.
And all humans should fight those beasts till their complete extermination, otherwise those beasts will completely exterminate us.

[Sprayber]

Originally posted by Serb
Terrorists must die, otherwise all non-terrorists will die. You can't be nice with terrorists, you can't negotiate with them, you can't give them something that they want and be sure that they will be nice now, they understood only force. They are not nice people, and you know what? They absolutely do not care about you or anyone else life if or anyone else are not one of them and do not fight for their goal. Anyone who isn't one of them is simply dust, ashes. Those beasts know no mercy, as they demostrated recently. THEY ARE NOT HUMANS. ANY PERSON WHO CAN COMMITE SOMETHING LIKE BESLAN IS NOT HUMAN. Human being can't act like this.
And all humans should fight those beast till they complete extermination, otherwise those beast would completely exterminate us.

While you are right in the facts that you can't negotiate with terrorists and that you must seek them out and kill them, you also must do something to change the conditions in which they were created or you will never accomplish anything. That or we brace ourselves for another long and bloody century and hope that technolgy doesn't finally switch sides over to the terrorist.

[Serb]

True.

[Sprayber]

Originally posted by Serb
True.

I'll be honest and say I don't know what we can do.