SF throws down the gauntlet to Cali

[Pax]

Kids usually don't admit they are gay for fear of being picked on. People who the group feels to be gay are singled out and picked on. Whether they are gay or not. The group always picks on the other. I've seen this my whole life. Look at that case with Colorado Kicker.

[Aeson]

First off, SF was wrong in the implementation. I agree with the intent though.

The parental capabilities of a gay couple have nothing to do with the issue of whether or not they should be allowed to marry. If you feel one way or another about those capabilities, the proper issue that they apply to is gay adoption. It's ludicrous to argue that gay marriage is right or wrong based on their ability to raise children because gay marriage does not in and of itself lead to gay couples raising children.

[Ben Kenobi]

It's ludicrous to argue that gay marriage is right or wrong based on their ability to raise children because gay marriage does not in and of itself lead to gay couples raising children.

So again, you run afoul of my earlier point, that one of the important benefits society derives from marriage is children.

If you dissolve this connection, why should the state be under any obligation to recognise these relationships as marriages?

[Ben Kenobi]

Having to live in shame because of who you are might cause a little stress in someone's life.

despite similar levels of social support and quality of physical health

The article argues that the problems are not associated with the treatment, but rather, inherent problems.

Perhaps you ought to read the article, before rebutting, eh?

[Pax]

Ben Kenobi is right children are our future. How can we have Idi Amins, Adolph Hitlers.

Mass murderers, Pimps, Whores, Crack dealers and addicts.

[Aeson]

So again, you run afoul of my earlier point, that one of the important benefits society derives from marriage is children.

Marriage has nothing to do with children. A married couple may have children, they also may not. An unmarried couple may have children, they also may not. Procreation (ie. hetero sex or artificial insemination) is where we get children, not marriage.

[Ben Kenobi]

Ben Kenobi is right children are our future. How can we have Idi Amins, Adolph Hitlers.

Mass murderers, Pimps, Whores, Crack dealers and addicts.

Einsteins, Edisons, Ghandis, patriots, police officers, farmers and school teachers.

Care to continue PA?

[Agathon]

What about Schubert's, Tchaikovsky's, Turings, Wilde's, etc.

Or would these people be sent to homo re-education camps to be cured of their sodomite ways.

[Ben Kenobi]

Marriage has nothing to do with children.

Most of the children in the country are raised in families that have two parents.

So marriage and children, in the vast majority of cases are intertwined.

A married couple may have children, they also may not. An unmarried couple may have children, they also may not. Procreation (ie. hetero sex or artificial insemination) is where we get children, not marriage.

Again, I go back to the ideal. What is the ideal for having and raising children? Inside marriage. Yes, children may be born outside, and some marriages may not have children, but the ideal for both children and marriage, is for the two to be combined.

[Pax]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi




The article argues that the problems are not associated with the treatment, but rather, inherent problems.

Perhaps you ought to read the article, before rebutting, eh?

I did. I disagree with the finding.
Listen, children are not likely to admit that they are gay, until adulthood. Maybe not even then. They hold that stress inside until they release it. Even when they admit who they are they still suffer because of people who share some of your opinions. It's not possible for me to tell you exactly how it feels to be persecuted for being gay. I only witnessed it with a close friend. I myself was ostracized and suffered a little because, I refused to join the group so I must be gay also. If you are a Christian you should definitely love the sinner and hate the sin but don't kill the sinner.

I'm telling you if gays could be free a lot of findings in this study would go down.

[Ben Kenobi]

I disagree with the finding.

On what grounds? Personal opinion?

It's not possible for me to tell you exactly how it feels to be persecuted for being gay.

So why should we believe you over the study? What happens to one person, one friend of yours may not be the norm.

If you are a Christian you should definitely love the sinner and hate the sin but don't kill the sinner.

I agree. However, I have had the opposite happen. When I became a Christian, I had many friends turn away from me.

I am trying to argue that for the majority of people in a homosexual relationship, that they would be happier outside, rather than inside of one. By saying they ought to get married, we are consigning them to unhappiness.

[Aeson]

Again, I go back to the ideal. What is the ideal for having and raising children? Inside marriage. Yes, children may be born outside, and some marriages may not have children, but the ideal for both children and marriage, is for the two to be combined.

Your ideal. Are you suggesting that the US government should impose that ideal on all couples? That so we can reach that ideal, everyone must marry and have children. I think it would be ideal if no one had children, then we'd have solved all of humanities problems within a century. I'm not so egotistical to think that everyone should abide by my ideal though.

Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Not life, liberty, and only the pursuit of Ben Kenobi's ideal of happiness.

Also, you are still ignoring the fact that whether or not a gay couple have children has nothing to do with whether or not they are married.

[Aeson]

By saying they ought to get married, we are consigning them to unhappiness.

This isn't about what they 'ought' to do. It's about allowing them to do what they want to do in the same relative manner that hetero couples are allowed to do so.

[MrBaggins]

Its obviously a ploy to unfairly keep on taxing gay people more.

[Aeson]

Most of the children in the country are raised in families that have two parents.

So marriage and children, in the vast majority of cases are intertwined.

They are still seperate issues. You can take any issues and link them, but it doesn't negate that marriage is about the union of a couple (hell, of a group even), and procreation is about the forming of life. Marriage does not form life.