SF throws down the gauntlet to Cali

[Agathon]

Shame that. I was trying to guess which one was you. I'm sick of thinking you look like Alec Guinness, and horrified at the creeping mental association of you with Ms Carey, lovely though she is.

One day when I have the time, I'm going to try arguing your side for the sake of it as I think the arguments mounted against it ignore the fact that the religious man, whether he knows it or not, is essentially at war with liberalism with which there can be no rational compromise.

And NP. I don't think it's fair that people be wrongfully accused.

Peace.

[Ben Kenobi]

No matter how he tries to sugar coat his arguments, they are still homophobic.

So how can I win? By being silent, so that you feel more confortable Fez? By being more outspoken than I am already?

Ask yourself, which you would prefer. I'll bet you will be surprised by your own answer.

I am just sick of morons trying to belittle people for their sexual orientation.

I'm just blind to it, I think... it shouldn't really matter who one sleeps with, unless it causes problems for the person. And there are people who feel trapped by the lifestyle, even if you feel satisfied.

I mean what have we ever done to you? Have we ever done anything to harm you?

No, and no. But I don't know if you can understand. I do this not to condemn you, but rather to show you another option, that no one will really talk about because it is unpopular.

[Ben Kenobi]

Some people would be, that's why I said I was serious. Ben, if you are insulted I apologize.

I've been called many worse things on this forum. So why should I be troubled by your comments?

[Ben Kenobi]

Shame that. I was trying to guess which one was you. I'm sick of thinking you look like Alec Guinness, and horrified at the creeping mental association of you with Ms Carey, lovely though she is.

I don't have a picture of myself. At least not available online.

Perhaps one day, I'll post a pic, but I'd need a scanner and I don't have one.

[Ben Kenobi]

Your ideal. Are you suggesting that the US government should impose that ideal on all couples? That so we can reach that ideal, everyone must marry and have children.

No. Not everyone is supposed to marry. Those who want to marry should try to live up to the ideal, but the funny thing is that none of us do.

So the real value comes not from falling short, but in trying to live up to the ideal.

And, no, it is not mine. I can't claim credit for the idea is far older than me.

Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Not life, liberty, and only the pursuit of Ben Kenobi's ideal of happiness.

But the government is not barring anyone from being happy.

Also, you are still ignoring the fact that whether or not a gay couple have children has nothing to do with whether or not they are married.

Why does your fact matter? Regardless of whether they are recognised as married or not, you cannot fill that other gender that you lack.

[Jaguar]

Originally posted by Agathon
And you've threatened violence against other posters. Comical violence, but violence nonetheless. You've also called almost everyone on Poly a moron, a criminal or both.

I have never been called a moron by Fez.

[Ben Kenobi]

It's a broken record. He's probably posted more on gay marriage than all the gay posters here combined. It's an obsession with him...so why continue banging heads against the wall of ignorance?

That is what happens when I am the only one arguing against you on this forum.

Think about that for a minute. Perhaps, it is not that I want to discuss this subject, but rather, that I have been put in such a position, where I am the only one arguing this side.

How many threads have I started on this topic?

[Jaguar]

Zero.


*goes off, having answered the rhetorical question*

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov


Yes, and the crux of this argument is that you are a bigot. That's what it all really boils down to.

That's ridiculous.

You know if you were caught in a fire, Ben would be one of the few Apolytoners who might try to get you out. There's a flipside to this "bigotry".

No doubt the majority of everyone else would be standing around appreciating the warmth as you slowly toasted.

[Ben Kenobi]

This isn't about what they 'ought' to do. It's about allowing them to do what they want to do in the same relative manner that hetero couples are allowed to do so.

So why should we allow something if it is not something that ought to be done?

It is about what they ought to do. That's the whole debate. You argue they ought to marry, while I would say that they should not.

Anything else is meaningless.

[The Mad Monk]

The Governator steps in...

Schwarzenegger Seeks Stop to Gay Unions


Email this Story

Feb 21, 12:12 AM (ET)

By BETH FOUHY


BURLINGAME, Calif. (AP) - After a judge Friday declined to put an immediate end to same-sex marriages in San Francisco, Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger ordered California's attorney general Friday to "take immediate steps" to get a court ruling to make the city stop.

Schwarzenegger's directive to Attorney General Bill Lockyer was prompted in part by the judge's decision not to impose a temporary restraining order that would have halted San Francisco's weeklong parade of 3,175 same-sex weddings, said Rob Stutzman, Schwarzenegger's communications director.

"Our civilized society and legal system is based upon a respect for and adherence to the rule of law," Schwarzenegger wrote in a letter to Lockyer. "The City and County of San Francisco's unfortunate choice to disregard state law and grant marriage certificates to gay couples directly undermines this fundamental guarantee."

The Republican governor "feels that we've come to a point where we're starting down a dangerous path and it leads to anarchy at some point," Stutzman said. "It's time for this to end."


Lockyer, an elected Democrat who is a potential candidate in the 2006 governor's race, has said he plans to vigorously defend state laws barring gay marriage.

Judge Ronald Evans Quidachay denied the Campaign for California Families' request for a temporary restraining order Friday, saying conservative groups failed to prove same-sex weddings would cause irreparable harm. In a separate case, another judge declined to order an immediate stop to the marriages Tuesday.

The conservative group argued that the weddings harmed all the Californians who voted in 2000 for Proposition 22, which defined marriage as between a man and a woman.

The judge suggested that the rights of the gay and lesbian couples appeared to be more substantial.

"If the court has to weigh rights here, on the one hand you are talking about voting rights, and on the other you are talking about equal rights," Quidachay said.

Quidachay consolidated the Campaign for California Families' lawsuit against the city with one filed by another conservative group, and told lawyers for both sides to work out between themselves when the next hearing would be held.

Peter Ragone, spokesman for San Francisco Mayor Gavin Newsom, scoffed at Schwarzenegger's directive.

"The truth is, thousands of people are involved in loving relationships and having them recognized for the first time," Ragone said. "We urge the governor to meet with some of the couples because what's happening is both lawful and loving."

Mathew Staver, a lawyer representing the Campaign for California Families, said he believes the court ultimately will find that Newsom acted illegally when he began allowing gay marriages last week.

"He can't decide to grant same-sex marriage licenses any more than he can declare war against a foreign country," Staver said.


But chief deputy city attorney Therese Stewart said the failure of conservative opponents to win emergency injunctions demonstrates that the city has a strong case.

"Both judges really recognized there is nobody who is hurt by allowing gay people to marry," Stewart said.

Newsom remained defiant before the ruling, officiating at the wedding of one of California's most prominent lesbian politicians inside his offices at City Hall.

A crowd of politicians and lawyers celebrated that wedding as other gays and lesbians prepared to join the more than 3,000 same-sex couples allowed to marry so far.

About 25 anti-gay-marriage protesters later blocked the door of the county clerk's office, lying down in front of the line and singing religious songs. Gays and lesbians responded by belting out "The Star-Spangled Banner" until sheriff's deputies escorted the protesters out. No arrests were made.

Most Americans remain opposed to same-sex marriages. A poll out Friday indicated that 50 percent of Californians remain opposed, but that sympathy for allowing gays and lesbians to marry has risen by 6 percentage points over the last four years, to 44 percent.

In the San Francisco Bay area, 58 percent of all respondents support gay marriage, according to the Public Policy Institute of California poll, which was based on a statewide survey taken Feb. 8-16 and has a margin of error of 2 percentage points.

While defending its new marriage policy in court, the city also is suing the state, challenging its gay-marriage ban. The city contends the ban violates the equal protection clause of the California Constitution.

---

Associated Press writer Lisa Leff in San Francisco contributed to this story.

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20040221/D80REHL00.html

Pretty brave of him, all things considered.

[Jaguar]

Originally posted by Agathon


That's ridiculous.

You know if you were caught in a fire, Ben would be one of the few Apolytoners who might try to get you out. There's a flipside to this "bigotry".

No doubt the majority of everyone else would be standing around appreciating the warmth as you slowly toasted.

Wow. I'm surprised you posted that.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Jaguar Warrior

I have never been called a moron by Fez.

[Fez] You ****ing moron, JW! You criminal!![/Fez]

Feel better now?

[Agathon]

Re: Arnie.

Isn't it ironic that a notorious sex-pest and pervert is standing up for family vales against the "deviants".

[Jaguar]

It's not the same.

I never get him angry enough to say something funny to me.