Pray all you want, but

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
So being a believer protects you from all bad things?

I believe I was pointing out, through mild sarcasm, just the opposite. Clearly, claims that God "answered" prayers in instances where people survived brushes with death are in stark contrast to such instances where people pray and die terribly.

You must logically conclude one of two things:

God plays favorites, and the prayers of certain chosen folks will be answered, and thereby change the fate of hundreds of others. So because one or few chosen souls happened to be on a flight that was in trouble, everyone would get saved, whereas a flight lacking any such chosen folks would go plunging into oblivion. This would be an unjust, arbitrary god.

or

God doesn't answer anyone's prayers, things just happen. People praying and being "saved" is therefore coincidence, and the opposite is just a lack of it.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Berzerker
Molly -

Just giving others here enough credit to recognise your lies. And if I was omniscient then obviously I would know what others are thinking. Doh!

Oh please. I didn't read anything into his first post accept that he was reminded of Hannibal Lecter. There wasn't any hint he was accusing people here of something until you suggested it.

[alva]

I keep thinking of the example of Josiah in the OT who through repentence

Who's Josiah...? I don't know of any josiah around here....

/me does the DL
-

And give up on religion, the world would deffinately be a much better place. You know, the moment, history books start to depict all popes (and other similar ranks) as genocidal despotic sick maniacs on the same level as Hitler and Co, I'll know that the world will turn out just fine...

[Ben Kenobi]

Ben Kenobi - there's a problem with that passage from 2 Kings, the Lord was the one about to lay waste to the land/people, not a natural disaster. So praying to the Lord not to lay waste is not the same as praying that rising flood waters from a flash flood, etc., will cease rising.

Berz:

Not my point. Boris claimed that God cannot answer any prayers, not necessarily those involved with natural disasters, because his mind has been made up. 2 Kings rebuts that point, and that point only.

the world would deffinately be a much better place. You know, the moment, history books start to depict all popes (and other similar ranks) as genocidal despotic sick maniacs on the same level as Hitler and Co, I'll know that the world will turn out just fine...

Invoking Godwin's Law to kill an inconvenient thread?


In this 'enlightened' age, we have had more people die from wars, etc. than in all other centuries combined. I would argue that turning away from religion is one of the primary causes for these atrocities that we see around us today.

[Lawrence of Arabia]

God helps those who help themselves

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


Berz:

Not my point. Boris claimed that God cannot answer any prayers, not necessarily those involved with natural disasters, because his mind has been made up. 2 Kings rebuts that point, and that point only.

No, I didn't claim that. Once again, you're twisting what I've said. This seems to be coming a habit with you--reading what you want to read instead of what is actually written. That probably was learned behavior from how you read the Bible, though.

I said that if I were a theist, I wouldn't believe that God answered prayers. I didn't say he couldn't answer prayers, but that he wouldn't. The evidence seems to suggest that, if he's out there, he doesn't.

What I said God couldn't do was change his mind, if he's omniscient. If he knew exactly what he was going to do from the moment of creation when Ms. Edna P. Meriwinkle prayed to be healed of her cancer, then how is it he can be changing his mind?

The 2 Kings passage, if believed, simply implies that god is not omniscient and therefore can change his mind against his own actions. This happens several times, where god "repents" and changes course. How can an all-knowing god who is perfect in all he does change his mind? Any change in course of action would have to be pre-ordained. If god's actions appeared to change due to the prayers of an individual, you have to believe the individual was preordained to make the prayer, hence Free Will doesn't exist.

You have to explain the oddity that one old woman's prayer to be healed of her cancer was answered while a the fervent prayer's of those 20 schoolchildren whose bus went plunging into the ravine were not. Sophistry not accepted.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia
God helps those who help themselves

AMEN!

[Japher]

does that mean I can steal?

[Buck Birdseed]

So go on then, Ben, if God is infinately benevolent why does he allow evil things to happen?

[Japher]

When I was 8 I prayed for super powers, I didn't get them despite being good for a WHOLE week! That was the day I stopped believing god listens. Perhaps he is to busy F'ing with other worlds and planets.

[Bereta_Eder]

Syn Athena kai Heira keinei

Together with (the help of) Athena (you must) also move your hand(s) (take action)

[Berzerker]

Boris -

Oh please. I didn't read anything into his first post accept that he was reminded of Hannibal Lecter. There wasn't any hint he was accusing people here of something until you suggested it.

Sorry Molly, there is someone here who can't figure out the obvious. Boris, just what do you think "reminded" Molly of Lector? Someone's post? Molly was inspired to compare someone here with Lector and I asked whom provided that inspiration and I still can't get an answer. Do you think if Molly had started this thread Lector would have been mentioned? It's obvious Molly was slamming someone in this thread for deriving "amusement" from this tragedy... Making sense yet?

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Berzerker
Boris -

Sorry Molly, there is someone here who can't figure out the obvious. Boris, just what do you think "reminded" Molly of Lector? Someone's post? Molly was inspired to compare someone here with Lector and I asked whom provided that inspiration and I still can't get an answer. Do you think if Molly had started this thread Lector would have been mentioned? It's obvious Molly was slamming someone in this thread for deriving "amusement" from this tragedy... Making sense yet?

Gee, I'd say what reminded Molly of Lecter was the image of devout fundamentalists relying on prayer in times of disaster and setting themselves up to be wiped out by disaster.

I think he was right when he used "paranoia" for you, which you make pretty obvious by your refusal to admit you made a wrong assumption about his intent and your shrill attempts to keep the argument going. For someone who claims to champion personal responsibility, it's amazing you never seem to take any for your own mistakes. I'm surprised you didn't lash out at me for correcting your error on the Tommy Chong thread (though you did blame it on FOX instead).

I've seen you and Molly butt heads before, so I know you don't like him and are eager to take him one whenever you can. And I saw how you falsely implied Dr. Strangelove wasn't a doctor because he dared to disagree with you with his medical opinion, and didn't make any attempt to apologize. I'm well aware of your penchant for vindictiveness against anyone who dares to argue with you, but in this instance, I think it's safe to say you picked a battle unwisely and look like ever the paranoid fool. I can't wait for more eyerolls, with the hope they'll get lodged up there.

Tah!

[Grandpa Troll]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
Even if I were a theist, I'd have a hard time believing God answers any prayers. What's willed is willed, and the omnipotent, omniscient creator of everything is both incapable of changing its mind, and also has no interest in playing favorites with its beings.

You are VERY Wrong here Boris.

GOD is capable and has changed his mind (or his will even).

Just trying to get you focused on what is correct and what is INCORRECT!

He also has played favorites, although not to the aspect of what Humaness plays favorities. I am not sure if you read the Bible or not, but God has done both, of the mentioned subjects I called attention to, both were on Moses...

Peace

Grandpa Troll

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Troll


You are VERY Wrong here Boris.

GOD is capable and has changed his mind (or his will even).

Just trying to get you focused on what is correct and what is INCORRECT!

He also has played favorites, although not to the aspect of what Humaness plays favorities. I am not sure if you read the Bible or not, but God has done both, of the mentioned subjects I called attention to, both were on Moses...

Peace

Grandpa Troll

Well, it's nice that you ignored the philosophical problems of that and just asserted it as truth, but you'll also note that my reference to being a theist didn't say being a Christian. What the Bible claims god does or doesn't do isn't of any concern to me, because I don't think it's any more accurate as a metaphysical text than the Illiad or the Odyssey are.