Pray all you want, but

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
God loves each one of us as a father does a son, in that he wants his sons to grow and develop to their full potential.

In this, the only way in which we can grow is through trial. If God did all of our homework, would we ever learn how to solve the problems? No. Therefore God allows us to stumble and make mistakes, so that we may learn.

But a normal human father is just, well, a human, and he has no supernatural powers to aid him.

On the other hand, the Judeo-Christian god do not need to go through such a process. Even humans can build machines that operate at their specs, I am sure a powerful if not omnipotent being can do it much better than us.

[Berzerker]

Ben -

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


I wonder. Should I tell?

Obiwan? Ben Kenobi? I detect a pattern

Job 42:3-6

"Surely I spoke of things I did not understand,
things too wonderful for me to know.

"You said, 'Listen now, and I will speak;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.'
My ears had heard of you
but now my eyes have seen you.
Therefore I despise myself
and repent in dust and ashes."

Why does Job repent? Look at that bit, 'now my eyes have seen you. Therefore I despise myself.'

Seeing God makes Job realise his sinfulness in comparison. Though an upstanding man, Job repents when exposed to the glory of God.

It's an excellent question Berz! I had not thought of that point before.

Okay.

He does if he desires the people of Sodom to repent.

Why? The investigation is about gaining information, not asking them if they will repent - those are 2 different motives. Furthermore, God sends messengers to investigate and they don't ask the people if they will repent; they investigate, confirm the allegations are true, and help Lot et all escape from the impending destruction. Btw, I'm not even sure why Gomorrah is in the story because the focus is all on Sodom. But there is an interesting connection earlier on in Genesis about a battle between the Kings of the Plains cities and Abraham and his allies...

Could it be passed? How hard is it to not eat of a tree filled with apples when you have an entire garden?

Not very hard unless it is man's nature to inquire, experiment, etc. But being omniscient includes knowing man's nature, if you leave a child in a room with a bunch of boxes and tell them not to open the box with the "X" on it, the child will most likely open that box. People aren't omniscient and we know this... Also, being omniscient means knowing the future since having all knowledge includes knowledge of cause and effect.

Your second question is not that tough. Did God say that they would die right away? No. I don't see why the serpent being correct takes anything away from God's omniscience.

God said the Adam would die that very day, and the word in hebrew means a 24 hour period, no metaphor was used. When God discovers that they ate from the Tree, what did He tell his colleagues? Did He say, "Behold, the Adam will die today"? No, He makes no mention of dying, He virtually repeats verbatim what the Serpent said would happen. Their eyes would be open, and they would become like God(s) to know good an evil. So God tells his colleagues we must block their way to the Tree of Life lest they become immortal. Another interesting question: why does Jesus advise his followers to be gentle as the dove, but wise like the "serpent"?

Genesis 2:16-17

"You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."

The KJV says "for in the day you eat of it you shall surely die", and I believe Eve said they would die if they so much as touched it which implies an immediate consequence. Maybe the KJV is inaccurate, which translation did you use?

Yes, he wants to hear Adam's answer. Adam ends up passing the buck to Eve, and Eve to the serpent.

Yes, at some point I suspect this omniscient being will learn that passing the buck is quite human. But in a way, even God passed the buck by blaming everyone else and ignoring how He set up this scenario (assuming omniscience and omnipotence of course). But the Serpent didn't pass the buck when he could have blamed God for creating him and letting him into the Garden... I do like how Adam implicated God though, "it was that woman you gave me."

God makes the heavens and the Earth. Now God can't find Adam? Something's not adding up here.

Yup, these Gods are not the same, but since monotheism was becoming the official religion of the Hebrews, only one God gets the credit. Btw, if you read closely what Genesis says, God didn't create the Earth (this planet), He revealed the "dry land" called "Earth" by gathering together the pre-existing waters into "Seas".

This "conflict" between God and the Serpent has it's roots in the Sumerian religion with En.lil as the God of the air and En.ki as the serpent God of the land and really does explain why God and the Serpent have such a bizarre relationship in the Bible. Why does God feel this need to even accept "Satan's" challenge regarding Job unless God feels He has something to prove? If there really was this enmity between God and Satan, I'd think God would just eliminate or ignore him...

[Ben Kenobi]

which translation did you use?

Boris' mortal enemy, the NIV.

My pastor uses the NIV, so I do as well.

why does Jesus advise his followers to be gentle as the dove, but wise like the "serpent"?

If one were as wise as the serpent, would you be fooled by his tricks?

even God passed the buck by blaming everyone else and ignoring how He set up this scenario

Again, Adam and Eve were tempted, it does not mean that they could not resist.

If there really was this enmity between God and Satan, I'd think God would just eliminate or ignore him...

Give him time.

He did have something to prove in this case, the righteousness of Job. God even sets up the battle by showing Job off to Satan.

[Berzerker]

If one were as wise as the serpent, would you be fooled by his tricks?

Hmm...good one.

Again, Adam and Eve were tempted, it does not mean that they could not resist.

But an omniscient being would know their resistance was futile.

He did have something to prove in this case, the righteousness of Job. God even sets up the battle by showing Job off to Satan.

An omniscient being would know Job was righteous. That seems to be my pat response.

[Elden]

Re: Pray all you want, but

Originally posted by Berzerker
it won't do any good if you leave your brain sitting in the pews.

Case in point: recently NE Kansas was hit by a flurry of thunderstorms and flash floods. Several people drowned along a stretch of I-35 (the Kansas Turnpike), but the unfortunate reality is that a woman and her 3 (or4?) children who drowned didn't have to die. Before their minivan was swept from the road, the husband, wife, and children were in the van as the waters rose when a man tapped on the window offering assistance. The husband declined the offer telling the rescuer they'd pray instead.

FOR WHAT? HELP? The man was there to HELP!!!

Contrast that with another motorist trapped in the rising waters. An elderly woman - 79 years old - was assisted by another man (who ended up drowning himself helping others) and brought to safety. She prayed too, and behold, her prayer was heard and she was brought to safety.

You know, with all the people who die in this world every day, I just can't muster much sympathy for imbeciles who die because of their own stupidity, but far too often, they end up taking others with them. These children died because their parents left their brains at church...

During a press conference, the praying husband who did eventually escape the minivan while his family did not, lamented the incident adding that he hoped something good would come from the tragedy. Yeah, the next time you're in trouble use the brain God gave you!

You realise thats a joke - I'll post it as I remember it.

A flood had begun in a small town and a christian lady was trapped on the roof of her house. She prayed for God to save her. Suddenly a raft came past and it's owner yelled to her "Quick get on I'm here to rescue you." she said "No thanks, God will save me." he was shocked but left.

A few minutes later as the water rose she prayed "God, plese, save me." A large boat quickly arrived but she refused it as she claimed God would save her.

Soon the water was up to her chest and she prayed again for God to save her. A rescue plane came by and offered to save her but she refused as she claimed "God will save me."

A few minutes later she arrived in Heaven and asked God "God, I was faithfull and prayed for you to save me, why didn't you?"

God responded "First I sent you a raft, then I sent you a boat, finally I sent you a plane. Why didn't you go on one of those?"

EDIT: I only just noticed the similar joke on page one, Sorry for accidentally wasting your time

[GePap]

Actually, I think that was posting number #5 for that joke.

[LoneWolf]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov


It's not an issue of caring what others believe. If you're allowed to state your belief, so is anyone else. But if you enter into a debate over the logic of your beliefs, you have to be prepared to defend them.

It reminds of when, years ago, Pat Robertson whined on TV that his religious beliefs were coming under attack. Well, Pat, that's because, instead of minding your own business and keeping your beliefs between you and your god, you chose to foist those beliefs unto other people via your political lobbying and campaigning. When religious beliefs are put into the political realm and can potentially effect non-believers, they are fair game for rational dissection.

Logic??!!! We're talking about religious belief here! What the hell does logic have to do with it? It is, by definition, illogical and unprovable. Jeez.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by LoneWolf
Logic??!!! We're talking about religious belief here! What the hell does logic have to do with it? It is, by definition, illogical and unprovable. Jeez.

Really? I think you must tell this to the theologians. They were trying to prove Christianity last I heard. Poor souls.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Nitpick. The crux of your argument is that God could not answer prayers without violating his omniscience.

And you'll note that nowhere did I presuppose God to be omniscient in the first place.

His reasoning is that when asked the question of why the smartest man in the world wanted to be a garbageman, he concludes, that because he is the smartest man in the world, we are in no position to question the decisions of the garbageman.

Solipsism. Yeeees.

We do not understand omniscience, or how God can know everything, yet allow man a semblence of Free Will.

Exactly what in the Bible says God is omniscient, anyway? Or is it just inferred?

One thought that came into my mind, please drop it if is does not help. Suppose God knows everything in the past, present and in the future.

Everything in the future, depends on the events of the present. God sees all the possibilities that can come from our actions, but knows not which possibility will occur because we are free individuals.

Thus the timeline looks like a cone, with a large top, and a slender line representing the past, and an expanding point in the present.

That would still make god not omniscient. Omniscience requires knowledge of everything. Even if god knew every possible outcome of a person's choices, if he didn't know the exact choice they will make, he is not omniscient.

Did Judas have Free Will? Jesus foretold his betrayal. What if Judas had exercised Free Will and not betrayed Jesus? Wouldn't that throw the entire plan into disarray? How would Jesus/god know Judas was to betray them, if Judas hadn't done it yet and his path was uncertain even to god? I don't see the argument as holding much water.

There are many passages in the bible that affirm that God hears our prayers, and that some of them he answers. Why he answers some generally can be attributed to what God wants and not what we do, otherwise all our prayers would be answered.

The Illiad affirms that Aphrodite, Zeus and Hera answer prayers, too.

The Bible can "affirm" any supernatural occurances it wants, but sans evidence such affirmations are meaningless. In modern observations, we can see innumerable instances wherein prayers are not answered, or they seem to be answered. There's nothing this says besides the outcome of such situations being independent of the prayers offered.

[OzzyKP]

My Prayers were Always Answered

I'm no biblical scholar, but I'll give you a nice account of my prayers growing up.

Perhaps they weren't typical prayers, which seem more like wishes to me. I more made deals with God for small things. Like I'd often ask to stay home from school that day, then I promise to read X pages in the Bible, or be sure to go to church that week or whatever. Every time I made the deal we both kept our side.

Finally in middle school I asked for something bigger than staying home from school. I wanted TO GET LAID (since this is a long post, I figure I put that part in caps so y'all will actually read this, hehe) I met this girl on the local bbs (remember those?) and arranged a time to go over to her house. My prayer and deal was that this girl would put out and my end of the deal was to never ask for a day out of school from him again.

Well God works in mysterious ways as is often heard. I biked over there, and she was enourmous, and ugly. Thankfully I had an exit strategy (unlike Bush) so I tactfully got myself the hell out of there. Had I stuck around she probably would have put out, so in his way God kept his end of the bargin.

I'm thinking there was some miscommunication with that deal, because I certainly didn't mean I'd never try to get out of school again, I just figured I'd keep it to my own powers. But ever since that time when I'd fake an illness to get out of school, I'd get that same illness the very next day when I had to go to school. Of course I couldn't use the same excuse two days in a row no matter that it was actually true the second time. hehe

Anyways, it worked for me everytime. I haven't done these kind of deals since though. Seems kinda triffling to bother the big guy with crap like this ya know. I haven't really made any prayers for myself since then. All my prayers have mostly been of the kind of praying for the souls of departed friends and family, so I guess I can't offer any proof on those.

While those petty prayers of mine worked perfectly I don't really think of prayer like a genie in a lamp where you make a wish and God grants it. That just doesn't seem right to me. The conclusion I've reached (in the last 5 minutes mind you, so don't hold me to it) is that prayer is kinda mixed in with faith. I have faith in God, and that he is looking out for me and helping me through life and I have faith my prayers will be answered whether I ask them or not.

I really don't like the idea of thinking of God as a magic lamp. I don't think thats an appropriate invocation of God to ask for a new car, or get out of school or anything petty like that. Also I've seen too many people's faith shaken or shattered when a prayer doesn't come true. Often they ask God to preserve the life of some loved one, and when they die they blame God for betraying them and taking away that person. This I think is stupid. People die. God isn't going to change that for any of us (except in the spirtual sense, but thats not what i'm talking about) So deal with it.

I'm all over the place with this post so I'll just call it quits now.

Oh yea, if you don't agree with me then thats because I speak in mysterious ways and my logic is uknowable by puny apolytoners like you. Trust me.

[MrFun]

I think Boris and Berz express their secret love for each other through tense disagreements.

[Lincoln]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov



Did Judas have Free Will? Jesus foretold his betrayal. What if Judas had exercised Free Will and not betrayed Jesus? Wouldn't that throw the entire plan into disarray? How would Jesus/god know Judas was to betray them, if Judas hadn't done it yet and his path was uncertain even to god?

Judas had the "free will" to do what he was ordained to do.

Jude:1:4: For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

and

Rom:9:16: So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Rom:9:17: For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom:9:18: Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom:9:19: Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom:9:20: Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom:9:21: Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

[Ben Kenobi]

Boris and Berz seem to be on the same side.

Congrats, you taught me a new word Boris.

'solipsism'

: a theory holding that the self can know nothing but its own modifications and that the self is the only existent thing

Please show me how I commit that fallacy, since I acknowledge that we can never fully understand God? We can still understand parts, but never everything.

Even if god knew every possible outcome of a person's choices, if he didn't know the exact choice they will make, he is not omniscient.

Please define omniscient, since our difference seems to be in the definition.

Exactly what in the Bible says God is omniscient, anyway? Or is it just inferred?

Gladly. Just a quick glance finds these passages.

Proverbs 15:3

"The eyes of the LORD are everywhere,
keeping watch on the wicked and the good."

Job 20-28

"Where then does wisdom come from?
Where does understanding dwell?
It is hidden from the eyes of every living thing,
concealed even from the birds of the air.
Destruction [3] and Death say,
'Only a rumor of it has reached our ears.'
God understands the way to it
and he alone knows where it dwells,
for he views the ends of the earth
and sees everything under the heavens.

Isaiah 46:10

"I declare the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things are not yet done what is still to come.
I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please."

[JohnT]

It takes 78 presses of the page down key to fully scroll down this page, this post included.

Yeah, I'm bored. So sue me.

[Dr Strangelove]

Re: Pray all you want, but

Originally posted by Berzerker
it won't do any good if you leave your brain sitting in the pews.

Case in point: recently NE Kansas was hit by a flurry of thunderstorms and flash floods. Several people drowned along a stretch of I-35 (the Kansas Turnpike), but the unfortunate reality is that a woman and her 3 (or4?) children who drowned didn't have to die. Before their minivan was swept from the road, the husband, wife, and children were in the van as the waters rose when a man tapped on the window offering assistance. The husband declined the offer telling the rescuer they'd pray instead.

FOR WHAT? HELP? The man was there to HELP!!!

It sounds to me that this man failed to recognise that his prayers were indeed being answered, probably because he didn't want to part with his van. Eventually he may realise what he did wrong. Then he will literally suffer hell on earth.