Pray all you want, but

[Grandpa Troll]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov


Well, it's nice that you ignored the philosophical problems of that and just asserted it as truth, but you'll also note that my reference to being a theist didn't say being a Christian. What the Bible claims god does or doesn't do isn't of any concern to me, because I don't think it's any more accurate as a metaphysical text than the Illiad or the Odyssey are.

Ok..I never accused or awarded you the title of being a Christian, only God through His Son can do that and then speak unto your heart, I was merely pointing out fact. Fact is Prayer works and yes God does answer prayers and yes God does change his mind and yes God does allow bad things to happen to good people and good things happen to bad people. You and anyone else would have to approach the throne of God and ask HIM.

I am sorry it is of no concern to you, but it WILL BE very soon Boris..


Peace


Grandpa Troll

[The Mad Monk]

Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia
God helps those who help themselves

Thank you Mr. Franklin.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Troll
I was merely pointing out fact. Fact is Prayer works and yes God does answer prayers and yes God does change his mind and yes God does allow bad things to happen to good people and good things happen to bad people. You and anyone else would have to approach the throne of God and ask HIM.

No, it's not fact, it's your opinion. You're entitled to it, as I am mine. I'm sure if we set up a scientific experiment to measure the effect of prayer on cosmic occurances, it would show no difference in outcome between those who did and didn't pray.

If you conceed that god isn't omniscient, I'll accept such a god can change his mind. However, you have to also conceed such a god is imperfect, since a change of mind denotes a previously-considered course of action that was less-desirable on god's part.

[Grandpa Troll]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov


No, it's not fact, it's your opinion. You're entitled to it, as I am mine. I'm sure if we set up a scientific experiment to measure the effect of prayer on cosmic occurances, it would show no difference in outcome between those who did and didn't pray.

If you conceed that god isn't omniscient, I'll accept such a god can change his mind. However, you have to also conceed such a god is imperfect, since a change of mind denotes a previously-considered course of action that was less-desirable on god's part.

Heres what I accept;


God is perfect, Humans are not

God makes his decisions based on what he determines, not Grandpa Troll or Boris Godunov

God changes directions, directives or decisons, not based on my understanding your understanding or anyones permission.

I am not arguing but merely stating fact, if you dont believe it is between you and God and His Son Jesus.

I know anything I say or type rather will do nothing to convince you, I am witnessing to you, God will add the increase, if you dont accept him, well thats your choice. There will only be 18" between Heaven and Hell, the difference between Heart Knowledge of Jesus Christ and Head Knowledge of mans reasoning.

I just wanted to share that with you

Peace

Grandpa Troll

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
It is no different than the question of why does a good God allow bad things to happen in the world? The world does not care a whit for men, as we see through natural disasters.

Exactly. Disasters provide a rather thorny obstacle to theologians attempting to explain a loving god. After all, love is the new overarching theme in Christianity.

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
In allowing men some degree of freedom, also allows harm to fall any one of us.

How does the second part follow from the first?

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Troll
God is perfect, Humans are not

Originally posted by Troll
God changes directions, directives or decisons, not based on my understanding your understanding or anyones permission.

But as Boris pointed out, this is contradictory.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Troll
God makes his decisions based on what he determines, not Grandpa Troll or Boris Godunov

Then why would a prayer make a whit of difference to god? If we're incapable of effecting god's actions through praying, isn't that contradicting the notion that he changes his mind because people pray?

God changes directions, directives or decisons, not based on my understanding your understanding or anyones permission.

Again, this would mean god is not omniscient and not perfect. A perfect being would have no need to change his mind, since he would have been going the perfect course all along. An omniscient being can't change his mind, because he's known all along what he would do.

You can continue to engage in solipsisms like "oh, we can never know the mysterious will of god," but it's unconvincing. Just because you believe something to be true does not make it true nor rational. If you can rationalize any ludicrous belief to the very limits of absurdity by just saying "gods ways are mysterious," such beliefs lose all meaning and just become a string of uncritical, irrational messes.

[Grandpa Troll]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger




But as Boris pointed out, this is contradictory.

It is when seen though the eyes of Humansness, but when God makes a call, we should Trust he has our best in mind.

Proverbs 3:5 "Trust in the Lord your God, and Lean not unto thine own understanding"

Peace

Grandpa Troll

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Troll


It is when seen though the eyes of Humansness, but when God makes a call, we should Trust he has our best in mind.

Proverbs 3:5 "Trust in the Lord your God, and Lean not unto thine own understanding"

Peace

Grandpa Troll

Yup, solipsism.

[DinoDoc]

I always believed he answered every prayer. Just that sometimes the answer was no.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
I always believed he answered every prayer. Just that sometimes the answer was no.

We dispensed with that on page 1. Keep up!

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Berzerker
Boris -

Sorry Molly, there is someone here who can't figure out the obvious. Boris, just what do you think "reminded" Molly of Lector? Someone's post? Molly was inspired to compare someone here with Lector and I asked whom provided that inspiration and I still can't get an answer. Do you think if Molly had started this thread Lector would have been mentioned? It's obvious Molly was slamming someone in this thread for deriving "amusement" from this tragedy... Making sense yet?

Berz:

Option A: take what I posted at face value, and what I explained the post was about, and hold fast to Samuel Beckett's dictum: no symbols where none intended.
Then take a chill pill and be cool, daddy-o.

Option B: Go lick a dog's arse 'til it bleeds.

Whichever you find most congenial.

[Grandpa Troll]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov


Then why would a prayer make a whit of difference to god? If we're incapable of effecting god's actions through praying, isn't that contradicting the notion that he changes his mind because people pray?

I never said that Prayer is ineffectual..actually exactly the opposite

James 5:16 states the effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

God listens to the prayerful supplications of his people, and Jesus even stated when he was praying that he was praying outloud, not because he had to in order for Our ftaher to hear Him but that he wanted to teach his disciples.

The Lords Prayer even states "Thy Will be dont, here on earth as well as in Heaven."

Peace

Grandpa Troll

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
We dispensed with that on page 1. Keep up!

I stopped reading that page when Lector was mentioned. What was the resolution?

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Troll


I never said that Prayer is ineffectual..actually exactly the opposite

James 5:16 states the effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

God listens to the prayerful supplications of his people, and Jesus even stated when he was praying that he was praying outloud, not because he had to in order for Our ftaher to hear Him but that he wanted to teach his disciples.

The Lords Prayer even states "Thy Will be dont, here on earth as well as in Heaven."

Peace

Grandpa Troll

Quoting the Bible as some sort of authoritative source to people who believe it is neither the word of any god nor divinely inspired is nonsensical.

You ignore the rational problems with your position, and just throw out Bible verses that don't answer any of our questions. Why bother? If you want to engage in the "I don't have to defend my position rationally because I can just claim god can do anything and everything even if it makes no sense" defense, I just swat it aside with the "Solipsisms do not an argument make" point and will call it a night.