Indisputable Abortion FACTS:

[Dom Pedro II]

Oi! We are not talking death! We're talking life and not life! I'm saying that if it is unaware of its existence, it is the SAME as being dead. A human being that is alive and knows its existence knows that it does not want to be killed... it places a value on its life AND death. After its dead, it doesn't, but while it's alive, it does.... and so therefore, robbing a being of its sentience is immoral...

The fetus UP TO ITS DEMISE is unaware of itself and therefore cannot place a value of its life and death because it does not even know it IS.

And as far as what you're talking about... Yes, you're right... its not immoral to kill dead people since they don't know they're dead.





Ok, can we all agree that robotic incubation chambers for unwanted children is a fair compromise? That way crack whores and working women alike don't have to carry to term something they don't care about and nobody gets killed... seems fair enough to me. We ought to write a letter to the government telling them to put our finances towards THAT.

[yavoon]

Originally posted by Dom Pedro II
Oi! We are not talking death! We're talking life and not life! I'm saying that if it is unaware of its existence, it is the SAME as being dead. A human being that is alive and knows its existence knows that it does not want to be killed... it places a value on its life AND death. After its dead, it doesn't, but while it's alive, it does.... and so therefore, robbing a being of its sentience is immoral...

The fetus UP TO ITS DEMISE is unaware of itself and therefore cannot place a value of its life and death because it does not even know it IS.

And as far as what you're talking about... Yes, you're right... its not immoral to kill dead people since they don't know they're dead.





Ok, can we all agree that robotic incubation chambers for unwanted children is a fair compromise? That way crack whores and working women alike don't have to carry to term something they don't care about and nobody gets killed... seems fair enough to me. We ought to write a letter to the government telling them to put our finances towards THAT.

ok well I'll go w/ the repetition for a little while. ur argument is that nothing negative is happening to the fetus. well the same is true of an adult. THERE IS NO NEGATIVE CONSEQUENCE TO THE PERSON WHO GOT KILLED.

[Rasbelin]

It's difficult, but I'm sure the school would accomodate her, as would her workplace to reduce her load while she was pregnant.

So please explain then why on Earth most(?) pregnant women use some of their maternal leave already before the labour? Please don't say they do it just for fun, because that's an escape goat. No, I would (...with my very limited know-how of everyday motherhood) say that most simply take it because of the fact they're already quite stressed at the late stage of the pregnancy and that they are incapable of handling everything, because their energy goes to being pregnant (the medical condition, that is), rather than being capable of going on with the daily routines. With all respect, but you have to agree that it could be fatal if we would act like you anti-abortionists seem to think about the moral issue and pretty much ignore the woman, while only focusing on the rights of the fetus. I assume the constitution in most Western countries do try to protect the rights of all human beings, so the rights of the mother do have a very important role.

(God, forgive me for talking about this issue in a naive tone now, but there's no women around here who could explain it better, so my case may be weaker than it is.)

I just have facts to compare the two forms of depression, with post-abortion seeming a greater problem for most woman than post-natal depression, at least when looking at suicide.

There can be other reasons as well to that. But let's not get too suicidal here, okay?

[Dom Pedro II]

Fine, so there is nothing negative to the person AFTER they've been killed except that they had the one thing they valued taken away from them, which is a moot point to them cuz they're dead. UNLESS they felt pain before they died, but we're assuming they were shot in the back of the head buying groceries or something (because they cannot have knowledge that the end is imminent because that causes distress)... But beyond that person's scope of vision, its still an immoral act because they've had their sentience taken away from them. The one who killed them has violated THE most important rule of humanity in THE most extreme way.... they have hurt someone else, and they have taken that which is most important to them.

And it is also immoral because of the fact that that person may be missed. And so might the fetus, and I've SAID all this previously...

If you want to argue over whether an act is immoral to someone whos dead in spite of the fact that in life they may have placed value on that life, then NO, it is not an immoral act to the individual who has been killed and ONLY to the individual who has been killed because they cease to BE. They have no more sense of right and wrong or ther other... they're just DEAD.

But I wasn't arguing that killing someone is immoral to the dead person. I was arguing that life to a living person who is suffering is a worse experience than to something that can experience NOTHING.

[Velociryx]

Moral dead people....interesting....

-=Vel=-

[Rasbelin]

Indeed, I guess we should start looking for a serial killer.

[yavoon]

Originally posted by Dom Pedro II
But I wasn't arguing that killing someone is immoral to the dead person. I was arguing that life to a living person who is suffering is a worse experience than to something that can experience NOTHING.

k. we certainly can't ask a person who can experience nothing how it feels. but I'll go w/ a different angle.


"it is better to have loved and lost then to have never loved at all."

[Ben Kenobi]

Asuka:

So please explain then why on Earth most(?) pregnant women use some of their maternal leave already before the labour? Please don't say they do it just for fun, because that's an escape goat.

Usually not until the end of the pregnancy, do they take maternity leave. Some women do enjoy pregnancy and spending time with their babies afterwards, whereas some can't wait to get back to work.

Most women do work for most of their pregnancy, hence my qualification to working 'during' pregnancy and not 'for all the pregnancy'.

With all respect, but you have to agree that it could be fatal if we would act like you anti-abortionists seem to think about the moral issue and pretty much ignore the woman, while only focusing on the rights of the fetus.

Heck, some of the 'anti-abortionists' are women.

I assume the constitution in most Western countries do try to protect the rights of all human beings, so the rights of the mother do have a very important role.

Agreed, but there needs to be a balance. Just as the woman is important, so should be her unborn child.

[Ramo]

LOL Ramo, so how exactly do you see an unresponsive invalid who does not know when to open its mouth for meals or go to the washroom as sentient? How does this being have "the capacity to produce abstract thought" when he/she does not even have "the capacity to stop sh*ting his/her pants"?

Are you trying to tell me that the lack of motor or bladder control functions in some way imply the lack of the capability to produce abstract thoughts? If so, I'd love to see the reasoning behind this bald assertion.

When I go to sleep, I'm unresponsive to external stimuli to a large extent. That doesn't mean that my brain suddenly shuts off.

Furthermore, why does a fetus not have the capacity to produce abstract thought? What parametres set the ability for such mental construction? I'm really curious to hear these answers, is all.

Neocortical activity - the area of the brain the medical community tends to attribute most to higher thought processes. IIRC, around week 28, the neocortex starts rapidly wiring itself up, so the third trimester seems like a pretty good cut-off date for sentience.

Only Ramo did make concessions, and you have seen how much nonsense the Zylka / Ramo debate was.

What concession did I make?

[Dom Pedro II]

"it is better to have loved and lost then to have never loved at all."

And I'm reminded of Tommy Lee Jones' reply in Men In Black: "Try it some time."

That is an entirely different point of debate... and my opinion on it rides with the mood.... for better or worse.

[Neutrino]

My 2 cents:

Abortion is a tool to control human population. Morality has nothing to do with population biology. At the rate we're consuming resources now, the last thing we need is an increase in human population; in fact, we should probably decrease it.

[Geronimo]

Originally posted by Neutrino
My 2 cents:

Abortion is a tool to control human population. Morality has nothing to do with population biology. At the rate we're consuming resources now, the last thing we need is an increase in human population; in fact, we should probably decrease it.

Jesus. I don't oppose the majority of abortions that take place (because they are typically very early) but even I shudder to see this sort of sentiment. Hell, wouldn't genocide, biological weapons, liberal usage of neutron bombs etc. also be 'tools' to control human population? Looks as if the ends completely justify the means in your view.

[yavoon]

Originally posted by Neutrino
My 2 cents:

Abortion is a tool to control human population. Morality has nothing to do with population biology. At the rate we're consuming resources now, the last thing we need is an increase in human population; in fact, we should probably decrease it.

a lot of the civilized nations have very small population increases. and even those are declining. America w/o immigration would only show meager gains.

the population of the world is going up rapidly. but its not the west doing the child bearing.

[Rasbelin]

Geronimo,

abortions are less messy and don't create such side affects as mushroom clouds.

Yavoon,

which just displays how effective abortions are for population control. Own goal.

[Atahualpa]

Ok, Spiffor I see how you meant it! It looks as if she wasnt prepared to do that step again, alone and she just need some mental assistence.

About adoption. First I dont know any numbers, but I think when you just give life to a baby with the intention to give it away afterwards so that it may land in of those blackspots of our society then I guess you should not give birth at all.
If you know a family who will want the baby and they agree to do so before the baby is born I am all for adoption. But I am not in favor of filling "the market" with children so that maybe someday someone comes along and chooses this child.

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