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  • #256
    Originally posted by chegitz guevara


    It is gross hypocracy. Many communists in the West come from the "middle" class, i.e., the professional classes. I and Theben are no exception, 'cept I grew up poorer than my bro. He was born after we moved out of thr trailer parks. We have, however, associated with working class and poor people our whole lives, never assuming anything
    I don't agree with you, but i respect people's beliefs as long as they're not tainted with hipocrisy. I'm sure if i dug far enough i could find some, but of course that would work on most anyone.

    I'm more of a pragmatist, in so far as i believe you should change votes every election in order to make your seat a swinging seat, thereby ensuring government money gets thrown at your electorate just before every election

    Make democracy work for you, i always say!

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    • #257
      Fez, how many time do I have to tell you, Communism doesn't require a command economy, just make the corporations true democracies, the employees choose the Board of Directors as in one employee per vote. Instead of getting wages, the workers get a roughly equal share of the profit. The people are kept from slacking because the harder they work the more money they earn from thier dividends because they have higher profits.

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      • #258
        Originally posted by Odin
        Fez, how many time do I have to tell you, Communism doesn't require a command economy, just make the corporations true democracies, the employees choose the Board of Directors as in one employee per vote. Instead of getting wages, the workers get a roughly equal share of the profit. The people are kept from slacking because the harder they work the more money they earn from thier dividends because they have higher profits.
        So essentially killing productivity?

        You are wrong pal.. it does require a command economy to set wages.
        For there is [another] kind of violence, slower but just as deadly, destructive as the shot or the bomb in the night. This is the violence of institutions -- indifference, inaction, and decay. This is the violence that afflicts the poor, that poisons relations between men because their skin has different colors. - Bobby Kennedy (Mindless Menance of Violence)

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        • #259
          Originally posted by Fez


          So essentially killing productivity?

          You are wrong pal.. it does require a command economy to set wages.



          LOWER productivity! It would RAISE productivity because the harder you work the more you earn, DUH!!!

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          • #260
            Originally posted by Odin





            LOWER productivity! It would RAISE productivity because the harder you work the more you earn, DUH!!!

            Then you are a capitalist?
            For there is [another] kind of violence, slower but just as deadly, destructive as the shot or the bomb in the night. This is the violence of institutions -- indifference, inaction, and decay. This is the violence that afflicts the poor, that poisons relations between men because their skin has different colors. - Bobby Kennedy (Mindless Menance of Violence)

            Comment

            • #261
              Originally posted by Fez
              Then you are a capitalist?
              NO!!! I am a Co-op/free market Communist! Capitalists believe companies should be owned by investors, I think companies should be owned by the employees, which is a Communist ideal- Rule of The Prolarteriat.

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              • #262
                Originally posted by Odin


                NO!!! I am a Co-op/free market Communist! Capitalists believe companies should be owned by investors, I think companies should be owned by the employees, which is a Communist ideal- Rule of The Prolarteriat.
                That is like saying: I am a nazi communist.

                Contradiction!

                Companies owned by employees won't function. They have to be owned by investors in order to function. It has to do with transparency issues and structural crap...
                For there is [another] kind of violence, slower but just as deadly, destructive as the shot or the bomb in the night. This is the violence of institutions -- indifference, inaction, and decay. This is the violence that afflicts the poor, that poisons relations between men because their skin has different colors. - Bobby Kennedy (Mindless Menance of Violence)

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                • #263
                  "One Day in the Life of Ivan Deniosvich" by Solhenitsyn
                  I read that last year, and I still can't tell whether he was criticising it with extreme irony or whether he was writing a book that made the communist system sound less repressive.

                  I mean, Solzhenytsin made the life of the zeks sound almost perfectly livable, with the tricks and winks everyone has in their life to get by. But he never condemns the system.

                  I think Solzhenytsin himself proclaimed himself a communist until the day he died, even though he spent years in a gulag himself for some incredibly silly thing.

                  Companies owned by employees won't function. They have to be owned by investors in order to function. It has to do with transparency issues and structural crap...
                  This is essentially wrong. In fact, the current industrial revival in Argentina is being undertaken by cooperative owned and worker owned enterprise.

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                  • #264
                    Originally posted by El Awrence


                    I read that last year, and I still can't tell whether he was criticising it with extreme irony or whether he was writing a book that made the communist system sound less repressive.

                    I mean, Solzhenytsin made the life of the zeks sound almost perfectly livable, with the tricks and winks everyone has in their life to get by. But he never condemns the system.

                    I think Solzhenytsin himself proclaimed himself a communist until the day he died, even though he spent years in a gulag himself for some incredibly silly thing.
                    20 million died under Stalin from his great purges... don't tell me if it was less repressive, because it isn't. And from what it sounds when I was reading the book it most certainly was not.

                    This is essentially wrong. In fact, the current industrial revival in Argentina is being undertaken by cooperative owned and worker owned enterprise.
                    Actually you are wrong. What Argentina is experiencing is strictly superficial growth. Completely inadequate to provide any bounceback.
                    For there is [another] kind of violence, slower but just as deadly, destructive as the shot or the bomb in the night. This is the violence of institutions -- indifference, inaction, and decay. This is the violence that afflicts the poor, that poisons relations between men because their skin has different colors. - Bobby Kennedy (Mindless Menance of Violence)

                    Comment

                    • #265
                      Originally posted by Fez


                      That is like saying: I am a nazi communist.

                      Contradiction!

                      Companies owned by employees won't function. They have to be owned by investors in order to function. It has to do with transparency issues and structural crap...
                      Classic Fez rambling!

                      In a captialist system where workers get stock as part of their compensation they in effect own the company they work for. The idea is completely consistent. There is no rule that investors and workers cannot be one and the same.

                      "Transparency and structural crap"? What the hell are you talking about? These issues are completely separable from who owns the damn company.
                      - "A picture may be worth a thousand words, but it still ain't a part number." - Ron Reynolds
                      - I went to Zanarkand, and all I got was this lousy aeon!
                      - "... over 10 members raised complaints about you... and jerk was one of the nicer things they called you" - Ming

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                      • #266
                        Templar, transparency and structural issues have to go with the way the company is set up. If you have a bunch of people running the company, and many of these people are not required to run it, you will have structural imbalances. This is what communism results in, massive structural imbalances.

                        Communism is just nonsense and you know it.
                        For there is [another] kind of violence, slower but just as deadly, destructive as the shot or the bomb in the night. This is the violence of institutions -- indifference, inaction, and decay. This is the violence that afflicts the poor, that poisons relations between men because their skin has different colors. - Bobby Kennedy (Mindless Menance of Violence)

                        Comment

                        • #267
                          Originally posted by Fez
                          Templar, transparency and structural issues have to go with the way the company is set up. If you have a bunch of people running the company, and many of these people are not required to run it, you will have structural imbalances. This is what communism results in, massive structural imbalances.

                          Communism is just nonsense and you know it.
                          What stuctural imbalances. Co-ops work just fine. Templar and I have forced your way into the corner and now you are spouting your nonsense.

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                          • #268
                            Edit: Never mind. Just read this:

                            Create a Website | Tripod Web Hosting
                            http://members.tripod.com/~GOPcapitalist/socialistmyth.html
                            For there is [another] kind of violence, slower but just as deadly, destructive as the shot or the bomb in the night. This is the violence of institutions -- indifference, inaction, and decay. This is the violence that afflicts the poor, that poisons relations between men because their skin has different colors. - Bobby Kennedy (Mindless Menance of Violence)

                            Comment

                            • #269
                              Originally posted by Fez
                              Templar, transparency and structural issues have to go with the way the company is set up. If you have a bunch of people running the company, and many of these people are not required to run it, you will have structural imbalances. This is what communism results in, massive structural imbalances.

                              Communism is just nonsense and you know it.
                              Worker ownership does not equal worker control. If a company has 100 employees, 100 shares, and each employee from the CEO down to the janitor each own a share - every employee has equal ownership. It does not mean the janitor has equal say as the CEO. Presumably, each worker could exert an equal voice by creating a board of directors that exercises absolute control over the company and have each shareholder on that board. But there is no need to arrange things that way.
                              - "A picture may be worth a thousand words, but it still ain't a part number." - Ron Reynolds
                              - I went to Zanarkand, and all I got was this lousy aeon!
                              - "... over 10 members raised complaints about you... and jerk was one of the nicer things they called you" - Ming

                              Comment

                              • #270
                                Sorry but the workers cannot have control of the company or there will be problems. If each worker can exert an equal voice, the company will collapse.
                                For there is [another] kind of violence, slower but just as deadly, destructive as the shot or the bomb in the night. This is the violence of institutions -- indifference, inaction, and decay. This is the violence that afflicts the poor, that poisons relations between men because their skin has different colors. - Bobby Kennedy (Mindless Menance of Violence)

                                Comment

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