Question for communists . . . .

[Whaleboy]

I have a question for communists here, how do you plain to make communism work the next time you guys have a try at it in some country in the world, if that ever happens? How would you avoid the failings of the Soviet Union?

I have a theory that societies evolve through different stages. You have the despotic, you have the slightly less despotic, you have Fez, you have democratic capitalism, you have libertarian democracy (with capitalism), you have libertarian communism (with other stuff in between, its way more complex than that, but theres the general gist of it). We are obviously at the democratic capitalism stage, perhaps moving within this century towards libertarian democracy (I hope).

Capitalism has its place. Communism, when Marx, Engels, Mill etc, all formed what would eventually be communism in its current myriad of hugely diverse forms, also has its place. I feel it was written before its time, capitalism very much has the floor in this day and age, a prospect I treat with much caution instead of utter resentment.

I'm an idealist, I dont really care about reality! jk

As cultures evolve, we will inevitably move towards a libertarian form of communism.

We can see such things happening in the much older ancient cultures in Indo-China thousands of years ago. A highly capitalist society evolved out of despotism, and in turn evolved into a highly libertarian, educated society and culture, elements of which endure today, as part of what one would recognise as Buddhism. Other examples include certain tribes of the Native Americans. These are all cultures that are much older than the roots of our Western culture, that were mature societies while we were still in our despotic phase, that indeed we have only recently broken out of (300/400 years or thereabouts depending on interpretation).

As such, I believe a form of libertarian communism will evolve, and evolve slowly, certainly out of my lifetime, but that makes it no less relevant to me. It will not come effectively via revolution, nor armed force. It will come through understanding.

[Odin]

Capitalism is actually a needed precursor to Communism, that is why all the previous revolutions failled, they were in underdeveloped countrys like Czarist Russia or Nationalist China, both were mostly agricultural. If a Communist revolution would of hit the US in the Great depression it would of succeded, There was actually talk of revolution by many unemployed workers who dispised Hoover.

[Whaleboy]

Not sure it would have worked for a long time, but yes, capitalism is a step required to be taken for communism to work, just as despotism is required before capitalism etc etc.

I think the key thing is libertarian communism, there is a world of difference between that and authoritarian stalinism.

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Kidicious


Fascist. Your movement will be based on hate and will try to eliminate the jobless class. Is that what you want.

Let say I was living in 1936. Spain. I am given a choice in my mind. Would I swear allegiance to Franco or to the communists? I would say Franco any day, any time. I would never swear alliegance to a group of hapless pig dogs who are trying to destroy my country.

No elimination of the jobless class.. it will always exist.. I don't really have a solution for that.

Odin:

Capitalism is actually a needed precursor to Communism

Nice joke...

[Jack_www]

In every country that communism has taken hold dictators like Stalin have poped up. Corruption run wild with in the upper levels of government, and the powerfull giving themselves and those who are their friends favors.

Workers gain nothing by working harder, thus they just do what is barely needed to get the job done. Since the economy is central controlled their are shortages in almost about everything. I would say people are opperssed more in a communistic system then any other from of government. Communism will never work because it is not based on reality.

[Giancarlo]

The most centrally planned economy ever to exist, I would say is not Russia under Stalin.. but even moreso North Korea. Just take a look how they are doing.

And after 4 years of "marxist revolutionary government" in Venezuela 94% of the population is now poor instead of 50% before Chavez took over. Visit the link in my signature about the Venezuelan opposition movement for more information. Corruption reeks throughout his government and every bit of it.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Fez
Let say I was living in 1936. Spain. I am given a choice in my mind. Would I swear allegiance to Franco or to the communists? I would say Franco any day, any time. I would never swear alliegance to a group of hapless pig dogs who are trying to destroy my country.

No elimination of the jobless class.. it will always exist.. I don't really have a solution for that.

You have to do something. You can't just let a class of people grow and become desperate. It's going to be war. And the fascist are going down.

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Kidicious


You have to do something. You can't just let a class of people grow and become desperate. It's going to be war. And the fascist are going down.

Well you satisfy them with a bit of something called welfare. Even I can't deny that welfare must exist. But those who can work, must work.

And no the fascists are not going down. Even I don't like most fascist groups. They all are hateful bunches of SOBs. As are all communist groups.

You commies don't stand a god damn chance. Keep dreaming. You are not going to win in this world while I am here and so many other billions who want freedom and the right to live. You are not going to imprison them with your phony rhetoric and double sided attitudes.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Jack_www
In every country that communism has taken hold dictators like Stalin have poped up. Corruption run wild with in the upper levels of government, and the powerfull giving themselves and those who are their friends favors.

The system didn't become so corrupt until after Stalin died. Corruption is no more inherent in communism as it is in capitalist systems.

Originally posted by Jack_www
Workers gain nothing by working harder, thus they just do what is barely needed to get the job done. Since the economy is central controlled their are shortages in almost about everything. I would say people are opperssed more in a communistic system then any other from of government. Communism will never work because it is not based on reality.

You don't know how hard they worked. The shortages were caused by other factors, not because the workers didn't work hard.

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Kidicious

The system didn't become so corrupt until after Stalin died. Corruption is no more inherent in communism as it is in capitalist systems.

Absolutely. But the more transparent the system the less interfering. That is the problem with Argentina. And will be the problem with the big government of communism. The non-transparency.

You don't know how hard they worked. The shortages were caused by other factors, not because the workers didn't work hard.

So you must **** them with communism? Give me a break.. communism will not solve any problems, only create more.

You make the US completely poor like Chavez did in four year of revolutionary bull **** if you ever succeed.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Fez

Let say I was living in 1936. Spain. I am given a choice in my mind. Would I swear allegiance to Franco or to the communists? I would say Franco any day, any time. I would never swear alliegance to a group of hapless pig dogs who are trying to destroy my country.

Why swear allegiance to a bunch of people who were just trying to protect their own privileges and keep the rest of the country in the dirt?

Try reading "For Whom the Bell Tolls" or "Homage to Catalonia" and then see what you think.

And for anyone who wants a good read as to the fundamental inhumanity of capitalism read "The Grapes of Wrath" or "In Dubious Battle" by John Steinbeck who manages to say more in those novels than most writers have in their whole career.

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Agathon


Why swear allegiance to a bunch of people who were just trying to protect their own privileges and keep the rest of the country in the dirt?

Now that is what I have a problem with. It wasn't the nationalists who were.. but actually the communist who were.

Try reading "For Whom the Bell Tolls" or "Homage to Catalonia" and then see what you think.

No.

And for anyone who wants a good read as to the fundamental inhumanity of capitalism read "The Grapes of Wrath" or "In Dubious Battle" by John Steinbeck who manages to say more in those novels than most writers have in their whole career.

Read "One Day in the Life of Ivan Deniosvich" by Solhenitsyn. One day in a gulag because of communism.

[Jack_www]

Originally posted by Kidicious

The system didn't become so corrupt until after Stalin died. Corruption is no more inherent in communism as it is in capitalist systems.


You don't know how hard they worked. The shortages were caused by other factors, not because the workers didn't work hard.

First of all every worker in the Soviet Union had a quotia to fill. They did what was barely neccassary to fill them and had no reason to work any harder. It is a fact that the productivity of the Soviet Union was way behind the US and Europe.

I never said shortages were caused by workers not working hard enough. It more had to do with the central controll by the government of the economy and that the Soviet Union chose to build weapons and other things the people did not want or need and other things they wanted were not made, thus the shortages. IN a capital system you would never have such shortages and productivety is much higher, because workers are rewarded with pay for their work.

Yes there is corruption in every nation, but under the Soviet Union it was bad. The party leaders got all the good stuff while the rest of the people suffered the shortages and provety that came with the communist system.

Also the Soviet Union was way behind in technology when compared to the US and had to steal much of it just to stay close to the US.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Fez

Read "One Day in the Life of Ivan Deniosvich" by Solhenitsyn. One day in a gulag because of communism.

Perhaps they should have thrown him out of a helicopter instead.

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Agathon


Perhaps they should have thrown him out of a helicopter instead.

This is it.. I am gonna moderate myself.. I can't go off to the far right again.. I took the Political Compass again and rethought my answers and got:

Economic: +7.01
Authoritarian: +1.64