Question for communists . . . .

[Dr. Nick]

Re: Question for communists . . . .

Originally posted by MrFun
How can you consistently claim to be communists if you enjoy various services and products provided by capitalist companies?

For instance -- an American communist enjoying his vacation to Disney World.

Or something like that. I mean, if you're gonna be a communist, then renounce capitalism!

Propose a form of survival in a capitalist society without having access to anything made by capitalists. We'd have to live naked in the streets eating sewer rats.

Now, what about capitalists who enjoy socialist things? Public schools ought to be closed down and capitalists should be forced to send their kids to private schools.

[chequita guevara]

Marx never predicted the future. He always said you could not predict the future. His only "predictions" were for propaganda, and those were only general proclamations, such as the socialism being inevitable. It's not. We have barbarism as an alternative, but you want to accentuate the positive.

[Az]

Many people would argue that white-collar workers are middle class. This is not true. They are simply a different part of the working class. In some ways more priveledged, but not always. Many white collar workers make less than the best paid blue collar employees.

A common misconception back from the days when manufacturing jobs paid less than service jobs.

[Lawrence of Arabia]

I dont like communism because it forces people to do something they might not want to.

[Dr. Nick]

And Marx is especially applicable to the third world countries, most of his theories on the evolution of capitalist society are proven time and time again in the third world.

[GePap]

If white collar workers think of themselves as middle class, that is the class conciousness they will form for themselves, and the class conciousness they will act on, and be inherently anti-revolutionary.

Unless you can convince them as to why they should feel a class solidairty to "workers" they will not do the "workers revolution" any good.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by GePap
If white collar workers think of themselves as middle class, that is the class conciousness they will form for themselves, and the class conciousness they will act on, and be inherently anti-revolutionary.

Unless you can convince them as to why they should feel a class solidairty to "workers" they will not do the "workers revolution" any good.

Class consciousness isn't set in stone. It ebbs and flows. In the 1930s, secretaries were unionizing. In the 1990s, computer workers were unionizing. Journalists have unions, media workers have unions, teachers have unions, government employees have unions.

In other words, you are correct.

[MrFun]

Re: Re: Question for communists . . . .

Originally posted by El Awrence


Propose a form of survival in a capitalist society without having access to anything made by capitalists. We'd have to live naked in the streets eating sewer rats.

Now, what about capitalists who enjoy socialist things? Public schools ought to be closed down and capitalists should be forced to send their kids to private schools.

If you read more of this thread, you would realize I clarified in that I meant you could renounce capitalist-origin luxuries.

But that is moot now, since I understand what Chegitz and others have pointed out.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia
I dont like communism because it forces people to do something they might not want to.

As opposed to capitalism, which forces most people to do things they don't want to do?

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Furthermore, Marx was talking about the destruction of the old middle classes: the farmers, the small shop keepers, the artisans, etc. These classes have indeed largely disappeared. Farming, more and more, is being dominated by a small handful of agricultural companies. The independent farmer is continuing to disappear in the US. Small shop keepers have given way to chains. Artisans are put out of business by mass produced cheap products, though there is always a resurgance in periods of prosperty.

He certainly was taking about the middle class that existed in his day. That's because he never predicted the emergence of the modern middle class.

[chequita guevara]

Let's see if this works.

English: The lower strata of the middle class--the small tradespeople, shop keeers and retired tradesmen generally, the handicraftsmen and peasant--all these sink gradually into the proletariat. . . .

German (retranslated): The previous (Die bisherige) lower strata of the middle class--the small tradespeople, shopkeepers and men of private means (rentiers), the handicraftsmen and peasant--all these sink gradually into the proletariat. . .


E: The lower middle class, the small manufacturer, the shopkeeper, the artisan, the peasant, all these fight against the bourgeoisie, to save from extinction their existence as fractions of the middle class, . . .

G: The lower middle classes, the small manufacturer, the shopkeeper, the artisan, the peasant, all these fight against the bourgeoisie, to save from extinction their existence as fractions of the middle classes, . . .

So we can see from the original that Marx is talking about the previous middle classes (plural!), when he says that the middle class is disappearing.

[Kidlicious]

Che:

Spell is out for me. Where does it say that a new middle class will emerge from the need for skilled labor, unionization, and progressive policies?

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Kidicious
Che:

Spell is out for me. Where does it say that a new middle class will emerge from the need for skilled labor, unionization, and progressive policies?

Where does it say it won't? Where does it say that all of the middle classes will disappear? Frankly, one can infer from Marx's use of the word previous, bisherige, that there are other existing middle classes, which are not sinking into the proletariat. Otherwise, why use the word? He also doesn't write of a single middle class, but many middle classes.

The point is, people counter-pose the growth of a large "middle class" to Marx's claim that the middle classes were disapearing. Marx made no claim that all middle clases were disappearing nor that new middle classes wouldn't appear. What he wrote, specifically, as that specific, previously existing, middle classes were disappearing. And they are.

It's kinda like saying Marx was wrong for not predicting that the moon wasn't made of green cheese. Where did ever ever say it was?

[Giancarlo]

The problem with communism is it is deficient in economy productivity. It produces financial anomalies in the commerical and industrial complexes which are state owned thus causing fiscal imbalances. Not only is it dangerous to economic growth it is dangerous to the middle class and humanity. The middle class is growing under capitalism and since the industrial revolution it has grown in size substantially.

Lets take an example. If everybody makes the same you will have farmers and poor making the same as better educated people. This is immoral to the economy basis of a country and will lead to utter and an ultimate devastating collapse. This is why the system will never work.

Communism is the philosophy of the fiscally irresponsible and these people propose mortgaging the future of untold millions upon millions of hard working people.

The danger is there. And these ideas must be eliminated in the most effective manner, more education to why communism is disfunctional.

[chequita guevara]

Ne'er mind.