Sparta-Angels relations

[Snoddasmannen]

Originally posted by Googlie
They have replied in the Embassy:
1) - from Hercules:

As Mart indicated earlier we were offered:

• Doc:Ini
• Ecol Eng
• SotHB
• Non Linear

Pretty cute, we have all of these techs
But I agree with you Googlie, let's suggest Secrets. I don't think we should give them Doc Init even under the conditions they suggest, and perhaps we could cite paranoia in the Junta as the reason for this.

I've looked up Adapt Econ a bit, and it seems like a junk tech of no use to us. Why not suggest a sum of credits instead? As for additional compensation for them breaking their side of the agreement (as I previously explained my belief that they have), that could be part of the credit sum. Does 70 ec sound reasonable?

Anyway - as I said earlier, I prolly need to recuse myself from any decision as I seem to be at odds with the rest of the Junta in this matter.

*looks up recuse*
Ah, no I don't think you should "disqualify or seek to disqualify from participation in a decision on grounds such as prejudice or personal involvement" yourself from the decision process at all. Like you said, this is a democracy game. I for one really value your input, even though I happened not to agree with your conclusion last time.

[Modo44]

Originally posted by Snoddasmannen
Pretty cute, we have all of these techs
But I agree with you Googlie, let's suggest Secrets. I don't think we should give them Doc Init even under the conditions they suggest, and perhaps we could cite paranoia in the Junta as the reason for this.

Hey, we are being paranoid here. And for good reason, I think.

Originally posted by Snoddasmannen
I've looked up Adapt Econ a bit, and it seems like a junk tech of no use to us. Why not suggest a sum of credits instead? As for additional compensation for them breaking their side of the agreement (as I previously explained my belief that they have), that could be part of the credit sum. Does 70 ec sound reasonable?

If they can pay, you mean. And if they want to.

Originally posted by Snoddasmannen
*looks up recuse*
Ah, no I don't think you should "disqualify or seek to disqualify from participation in a decision on grounds such as prejudice or personal involvement" yourself from the decision process at all. Like you said, this is a democracy game. I for one really value your input, even though I happened not to agree with your conclusion last time.

I feel the same here. We decide together, and all voices are important, especially those that don't agree with the majority. We need different points of view.

[Maniac]

Quickly checking the forum between two lessons, and a quick comment: OptComp WILL enable them to select IntInt after switching research.

More explanation in a few hours.

[Maniac]

Posted this in the embassy. It includes the answer to the OptComp matter.

Lt-Col Maniac here. This isn't an officially sanctioned message, but as I assume you need to pass on your turn in the near future, I thought I'd give you an update on some discussions within the Junta.

First, I've just noticed something in Googlie's latest message I hadn't noticed before.
"The Angels change research right now to Optical Computers. We will send Opticals this year (2153 for us) in exchange for your sending us Adaptive Economics this year. This then guarantees that Int Int will appear as a choice for the Angels in your 2154 year"

If you'd change research right now you'd be indeed unable to select Optical Computers. This problem doesn't exist however if you switch research next year. The only purpose of giving you Optical Computers is to give all techs an extra +1 in the mod3 roulette, meaning IntInt will switch from 0 to 1. So next year, after having accepted OptComp which we would need to put pre-accepted in the diplobox, you should be able to switch research and directly select Intellectual Integrity.

As compensation for OptComp we would ask you to put Adaptive Economics pre-accepted in the diplobox this turn. OptComp is pretty useless, but AdapEcon as well, so I guess this is a pretty even deal. Note though there are voices within the Junta who would prefer to see some credits instead of AdapEcon in exchange for OptComp. May we therefore ask how many credits you could pay for us providing you a tech? Perhaps an extension of your turntime limit might be preferable so we can discuss this issue some more?

As a last request from some Junta members, could we ask not to execute a tech transfer of EthCalc to Gaia until this matter is resolved, and you have confirmed that you have switched to IntInt, and thus can fulfill your side of the deal?

---

Originally posted by Googlie
OK - so lets say that they agree to switch to Opticals - and postulate that they lose 100 labpoints. We say that's their problem 'cos they screwed up. We agree that we send them Opticals, with all sort of prohibitions, and that they send us Adapt Econ plus 100 cash for the inconvenience we claim to have have suffered as a result of getting Int Int later than was never promised.

They send it preaccepted. We open the turn, and accept, then land Mercury and find that for whatever reason we can't get the probe into MonStat to steal the tech. And Yang won't talk to us to sell-trade opticals.

Now we've screwed up. They have to change next turn back to Doc Int (or Secrets or whatever), losing, say 60 labpoints for the further change) We owe them a tech to cover for the lost research opportunity that all this has caused, plus 60 labpoint recompense?

We'd prolly say "oops, it'll have to be next turn when we send you Opticals "

Or to consumate the deal would we feel forced to techsteal from Yang, risking vendetta, with a 50:50 chance of getting Opticals (the other 50 being Polysoft)?

If we were unable to steal OptComp, we could always give them Secrets after all. I guess the Angels shouldn't have that much trouble with it, as it's a more valuable tech.

[Modo44]

Soo... the compensation won't get mentioned? Or do we assume, that the lost lab points are the only compensation here?

EDIT: Answer from the Angels:

Yes, it is indeed the solution.

Regarding energy credits, how much in your view Optical Computers would be worth at this point of the game? We have really little time, if the extension will not be granted, I haven't asked for it yet, though it is late now. I hope we might come to an agreement soon.

Maybe the extension is not needed. I can put Adaptive Economics pre-accepted now, and in case you decide to accept it, you will do it. In the other case, you will not accept it and we will transfer energy to you next turn, 2154, when we both agree on the size of the transfer.

We are discussing energy transfer right now, though I do not know if enough faction members will come on time - around 30 minutes now.

Regarding the last request - yes we will not transfer Ethical Calculus till this matter is resolved.

IT Mart

[Googlie]

It certainly looks like the whole snafu was an honest mistake and not some deep-seated conspiracy.

I've no problem accepting AdaptEcon. Altho I can't see us building many Thermocline Transducers, at some point it will be a blocking tech that'd need to be bought or stolen for us to progress, so might as well have it now (it's not as though we're micromanaging our techcosts and labpoints the way Morgan is).

Who knows - it might be a useful bargaining chip for a trade with Lal or Yang

[Modo44]

We could base our requist on the present negotiations with Morgan, regarding the sale of Ecol Eng for credits. We need cash for upgrades, that's what makes low-priority technology less valuable. If we get that 400 credits from Morgan, I think we can use Adapt Econ after all.

[Googlie]

Looks like they'd rather pay by tech than by credits:

Posted in the Embassy by IT Mart
Spartan-Angel Embassy, MY 2153

To Spartan Federation,

We had a discussion regarding transfer of energy credits for Optical Computers. However, we would prefer to exchange it for Adaptive Economics as it was initially proposed. We are presently in urgent need of energy in order to increase our research output. Our present energy income is not large and reserves not meeting all requirements.

The Adaptive Economics has been offered for transfer to Spartan Federation on the pre-accepted basis in case you agree to follow this way.

IT Mart

As y'all know, I have no problem in accepting AdaptEcon in exchange for Opticals to close this deal

G.

[Snoddasmannen]

Originally posted by Googlie
Looks like they'd rather pay by tech than by credits:



As y'all know, I have no problem in accepting AdaptEcon in exchange for Opticals to close this deal

G.

Ok fine, works for me

[Kassiopeia]

Fine by me... so do we have a consensus so I can post a reply and actually do something?

[Modo44]

Con-what?

It's fine with me.

[Kassiopeia]

Okay, since we're fishing the credits out of Morgan's hide, I've accepted the Angel proposal.

[Googlie]

[Maniac]

Originally posted by Modo44
Soo... the compensation won't get mentioned? Or do we assume, that the lost lab points are the only compensation here?

Sorry. IIRC I hadn't read an officially supported proposal for a possible compensation (though I admit due to being tired I had only quickly browsed through the posts before writing a message based on them) , and since the Angels turnplaying time was running out and no other Spartan seemed online IIRC, there wasn't time to further discuss what we could officially ask. I did include a request to be paid by credits (as Snoddasmannen suggested), but that option wasn't pursued I see due to Angel lack of credits.

Originally posted by Googlie
Who knows - it might be a useful bargaining chip for a trade with Lal or Yang

Who knows we could trade PolySoft or Superconductor with Yang => A bigger chance we get a new tech when we cash in the artifact.

I'm wondering though, is contacting Lal safe? As a years-long SMAC expert, how many times do you think we can contact Lal before he gets pissed off at us Fundies and breaks pact?

Originally posted by Googlie
It certainly looks like the whole snafu was an honest mistake and not some deep-seated conspiracy.

Yeah I tend to think so too.
After some further toying around with the tech choice simulator to see what results I get, I think mart7x5 just forgot to set the setting correct for the specific Angel situation, and only added their 16 techs to see what choices they would get. (see attached pic)

I still think though we did the right thing by not giving them DocIni. As a general rule I think it's never good to have a faction owe you more than one tech, certainly if that faction is a relatively slow researcher, as I assume the Angels currently are.

[Googlie]

Originally posted by Maniac
I'm wondering though, is contacting Lal safe? As a years-long SMAC expert, how many times do you think we can contact Lal before he gets pissed off at us Fundies and breaks pact?

He has nothing to offer us right now - I'm proposing to wait until he gets SFF before another contact.

(And after getting Opticals from Zak, that longstrider will relocate back to Argos, from whence I suggest he has one last Zak infiltration (to get the Uni maps) then after another relocation to Argos lopes down to lalaland to infiltrate Lal - we'll lose current infiltration data when lal eventually does break pactwith us

I still think though we did the right thing by not giving them DocIni. As a general rule I think it's never good to have a faction owe you more than one tech, certainly if that faction is a relatively slow researcher, as I assume the Angels currently are.

Right - they've said that they need their credits to go on a Network Node building binge (after all, for them it's drone control as well, having the VW)

And the longer we're the only faction with Doc Init, the longer we'll have that 2 mp advantage with our cruisers - podpopping opportunities where we have that 8-tile range. In fact, I'd build that (1)-2t-6 cruiser (the Enterprise) at AU but switch places eventually with the Invincible and have the Enterprise ruthlessly pop any seapods down by Angels and Gaian waters