Sparta-Angels relations

[Googlie]

Saw your post.



Let's see what that brings

I guess we could send Eth Calc pre-accepted this turn in any event, as it seems that Soc Psych is the spoiler here. Or do you want us to try and postpone it a turn to get them hooked into us more rigourously?

[Maniac]

Originally posted by Googlie
I guess we could send Eth Calc pre-accepted this turn in any event, as it seems that Soc Psych is the spoiler here. Or do you want us to try and postpone it a turn to get them hooked into us more rigourously?

Sending EthCalc seems good to me if you want to.

[Googlie]

IT Mart has replied:

Posted by IT Mart in the Embassy

There is little time to discuss release of information regarding our technology status, but I understand your concerns. So I will give you the following information:

We currently research Social Psych.
We posses all needed for IntInt technologies apart from Ethical Calc and Social Psych. Soc Psych is also needed for Doc Loyalty along with Mobility, which we posses already.
I simulated our choices for selection of technology in case currently researched is acquired, using the Excell spreadsheet ...Technology choices v.1.07.xls It gave me result with 7 available choices out of 8 all choices. IntInt is going to be available. So I guess everything should go ok. Considering that we research Social Psych, we would not loose lab points. However, I do not recall any such 2 techs solutions/attempts in the past performed by me when playing smax, so I cannot know if the game engine would not act according to the excell spreadsheet simulation.

In case something goes very wrong with these choices, though I hope not, there is also some possibility with tech exchanges with Gaians. We might just select what they research, then get it from them, then switch to IntInt - should be rather offered at that time if not offered now. But that would be our part to do it with them if needed.

Regarding estimated time of research completion, that would require prediction quite far into the future of our growth and decisions. It's a bit difficult to say now, I would have to spent some more time on it. If your cost of research is around 800, ours is around below 500 now. We may increase science output quite significantly having Soc Psych and Eth Calc - how much, I would have to calculate more precisely. Will tell you when I do it

So it seems like they're pretty confident that Int Int will be offered them, and if not, then they'll select a tech the Gaians have and then get it from the Gaians to allow a switch to Int Int

[Modo44]

So, like I told you, they knew, what they were doing by accepting the deal. And, as I told you, they accept that it is their responsibility to get any other techs, if necessary. Like I said, it's not our problem.

[Maniac]

IT Mart:
It gave me result with 7 available choices out of 8 all choices.

Aha! This info allowed me to figure out what the hell was my problem. There seems to be some mistake with the tech choice simulator (read here) (or alternative: I ****ed up something ) which led to misrepresenting the tech choices of the Angels. In any case, now I know what's the problem it will never happen again and I should be able to accurately figure out the Angel tech choices.

Originally posted by Modo44
So, like I told you, they knew, what they were doing by accepting the deal. And, as I told you, they accept that it is their responsibility to get any other techs, if necessary. Like I said, it's not our problem.

Edit: I posted this in the Angel embassy:

I have finally figured out what was my problem with the tech choice simulator and I now indeed get the same result as you.

I'd like to apologize for all this unnecessary mess I created. I have been informed by our Commander-in-Chief EthCalc and SocPsych will be offered pre-accepted to you this turn as originally planned.

It's reassuring to know the Angel Research Department too uses the tech simulator. It once again proves the Angels are a reliable and trustworthy trade partner.

[Maniac]

PM from IT Mart:

Hi, see the Spartan-Angel Embassy. We have a situation, details over there with some analysis of those nasty research offers.
M.

Doesn't sound good... Haven't looked at the embassy yet, as I need to go in a few minutes.

[Maniac]

[Googlie]

they now need Doc Init

[Modo44]

Well, actually, the Angels have a situation. IntInt didn't show up as a possible tech choice. Now they'll have to get a third technology, to be able to get on with the planned research. For us, this is a small delay, or a possibility to milk them with Doctrine Initiative, which they seem to need, to start researching IntInt. Remember, it was not part of the deal, so if they want it, they should pay.

[Googlie]

One alternative would be to say that we are prepared to wait for them to self-research Doc Init and then change to Int Int - they could always partner with the gaians (to have them also research Doc Init and the first one to get ot sends it to the other who switches to Int Int)

In other words, hold their feet to the fire and just hold to our end of the deal

Alternatively, ask what they'd be willing to pay for us to send Doc Init to them

[Googlie]

How about a Maniac reply to IT Mart along the lines of:

Hmm - so I didn't err after all in my analysis.

The Junta is considering what's possible - and permissible.

1> Get Drogue/Method's OK to reload the turn, and this time decline the tech offer until the tech choices situation is clarified and the deal restruck

2> Sparta waits until the Angels research Doc Init and then Int Int

3> Angels and gaians both switch to Doc Init, with the first one getting it sending it to the other who then changes to Int Int and when researched, passes it to Sparta

4> Angels acquire Doc Init from Sparta - for value yet to be determined allowing Angels to switch to Int Int

The considerations in 4) above might include adaptive economics plus some cash (and do we then embargo the Gaians getting Doc Init for a number of years? - after all, the cruiser hull's extra 2 moves is valuable). Or do we give the Angels Doc Init for adapt econ and also sell it to the gaians, knowing that they'll get it anyway thru trade or agreed upon probe?

[Modo44]

In the 4) case, we sell it to both, of course. If we must part with this tech, we should get as much for it, as possible.

We can't really expect the Gaians to follow the 3) plan. They have no deal with us, that would make them do so.

[Snoddasmannen]

This is terrible in my opinion... We had a deal with them, and despite our warnings that they might not be able to research IntInt right away they assured us that it would not be a problem and basically pushed the deal through. Now they tell us, after receiving our part of the trade, that they need additional clauses to complete their side of the trade. My gut instinct would be to say that this is not our problem, it is their problem, just give us our tech. At best, this severely damages my impression of the Angels as a reliable trading partner, and at worst I see it as a ploy to get Doc Init from us.

Pragmatically though, I would recommend to go for option 1), I don't think we should be forced to make this decision right away. I don't like 2) since it just seems like a rip-off, and 4) is very tricky since it assumes we can agree on a price. If we can't, what happens then? And like Modo suggests, 3) is also tricky ...

Looking back, we might have added a delay clause where they pay us credits every year they fail to supply us with IntInt, based on a log-growing function perhaps. That way they'd really have incentive to get it to us quickly, and we could simply have said in this case "Tough cookies, not our fault, hand over the credits".

Another reason I don't care for even suggesting 2) is that it will give the Angels some peace of mind. If we have this long term deal with them they know we probably won't go tearing through them with missile rovers (which is bad because we probably won't ).

[Kassiopeia]

I'm pretty much with Snoddasmannen on this, we shouldn't even have to be thinking up solution options, just say "you do what you think is necessary, but give us what you have agreed to give us". We need to renegotiate the trade and replay the turn, go with #1, if they keep acting up.

So, would this be a good time for me to jump in or should Maniac post in the forum as you've proposed?

[Modo44]

To me, this is an opportunity to milk the Angels. Clearly, they expected no trouble, and clearly, they accepted the responsibility. Any solution that we accept without getting all angry and loud, will make them owe us one. Either we cash that debt now, or we keep that possiility for later. Whatever the result, it seems like we come out on top of it.

I agree, that no matter what happens, we should make it clear to the Angels, that they made a big mistake, and that they need to make up for their behaviour. I'm not very angry about it, because their statements don't imply any bad will, and I don't see a reason to get loud about it. I'm sure, it was a mistake. It gives us an advantage over them. Let's use it, of course, and let's make them pay dearly, but let's not make an enemy. Not before we are ready to invade.