Sparta-Angels relations

[Kassiopeia]

That is true - after all, having the whole thing discarded and renegotiated from scratch would just give away any advantage we might have right now.

[Modo44]

Well, only some advantage would be lost. We'd still have a deal that they agreed to, so we still could sue them. But yes, keeping our part of the deal in-game is definately stronger for us. It gives them no easy way to back out (like a "sorry for your trouble" payment, or things like that).


Personally, I'm against solutions 1), and 3).

If we do 4), we should make them pay dearly, and also sell the tech to Gaia. To make sure they don't resell Doc Init, put an embardgo on it for 20 turns.

If we do 2), they will have to compensate for the delay. We don't care how they do the research. If they can convince Gaia to help - fine. But it's none of our business. Let them worry.

We should consider a slow payment. Either a tech of equal value (military application!) later, or energy credits (a load of). If they want to pay us with cash, let them pay on a per turn basis. Whatever we do, make them understand, that it is our good will to help them out now, and hint to the possibility, that we might want a small service at some point.

[Googlie]

I have pm'd this to Drogue/Method:

Text of Private Message from Googlie to Drogue and Method

Sparta and the Angels have been in diplo negotiaitons re a tech leapfrog based on our understanding of the Rubin techchoice simulator (or whatever its called - it's the excel spreadsheet that predicts what choices will be available for the next tech)

Anyway - after we (Sparta) placed 2 techs pre-accepted for the Angels, the choice that we both believed would appear didn't, and might only appear if we send another tech - maybe 2 - to the Angels.

Would the Mods allow a replay by the Angels with, this time, them not accepting our techs until we can unscramble how the excel sheet screwed up?

I believe that this would be analogous to the "parallel turn" allowance with the AI during dioplomatic exchanges - so long as in the replay the Angels did nothing different from the firast try except for non-accceptance of the offered Sparta techs.

What is the Mod's opinion?

(This message has also been sent to Drogue/Method)

I have also posted it in the Embassy

[Googlie]

I'm sure that this will bring howls of "not possible" from the Angels, citing all sorts of reasons why they can't replay - popped pods, or whatever (anything not to have to defer getting Eth Calc)

So it then lays the groundwork for us saying:

"Well then, I guess you'll need to research Doc Init and then Int Int in order for you to uphold your side of the deal - when can we expect Int Int under these circumstances?

Might your leapfrogging with the Gaians accelerate this? - after all, they too are benefitting from getting Ethical Calculus well in advance of Sparta getting anything in return, so although Doc Init and Int Int might not be in their beeline, it's only fitting that they should shoulder some of the burden of getting that tech to Sparta."

The Angels will come back and say "Isn't it more efficient for Sparta to send Doc Init to the Angels?"

We can reply: Naw - we can wait for the CDF - we're not ready to take on yang just yet - it's sufficient to have both your agreements not to build the CDF when eventually you get Int Int - and transmit it to us. We can build up our crawler fleet ready for upgrading that way

Alternatively, we could say:

Well, if it is your intention to next research Planetary Economics after Int Int, we could send you Doc Init in exchange for your sending Planetary Economics when you have that. So the restructured deal would be:

Sparta >>> Angels: Social Psych; Ethical Calculus; Doc Initiative and Sparta won't build the Ascetic Virtues

Angels >>> Sparta: Intellectual Integrity; Planetary Economics, and neither the Angels nor the Gaians will build the CDF

[Modo44]

Or, they come and say: "Fine, let's renegotiate". And our lever on them gets smaller, alowing them to try and back out of the deal. Didn't you read what we were talking about here?

EDIT: This is what mart7x5 posted in the embassy. So much for the too cunning plan.

The request is reasonable. Also, I think that I have found the problem I had in my spreadsheet. It's my fault and it is about settings. After Hercules checked his file and posted on our forum what he had, and it was in the agreement with what we got, I rechecked mine and found error in settings, so spreadsheet seems to work ok.

Anyway, the solution suggesting that accepting Ethical Calculus first will allow us to research Int Int was right. This is what I got from the spreadsheet after correction. We would have to switch the research in that case loosing some lab points.

There is also in this case a new possibility. That would be to discuss if you are interested. It would speed up things a bit, cuase it appears that if we acquire Doc Initiative, we would not have to loose any lab points and be able to switch to Int Int. That would however require a new agreement between our factions and trading Doc Initiative at this point. Meanwhile, I will ask also other members of Data Angels to confirm the prediction I got. Let us see what Drogue or Method will tell.

[Googlie]

I'm not so pessiimistic as you, Modo

I think with all this finagling we might actually come out the winner here, - c.f. Herc's post:

Posted in the Embassy by Hercules

Mart Asked me to call in and confirm the series of events as described above. We were offered that choice of 4 but which excluded Intel Integ. Indeed as Maniac, I believe raised earlier, if we had received Ethical Calculus only, then in switching research, Intel Integ would have been offered.

I also confirm the view that if Doc Ini is traded, as suggested by Mart, then Intel Integ will be offered in the choice of techs. We would offer you a future tech for it, as compensation.

Regarding rate of research, when our first wave of NN production kicks in, in a 3/4 years, we will be able to adjust our settings away from the current high psych percentage to labs.

So we'll get a level 4 or 5 tech down the line - could be Planetary Economics or Cyberethics (assuming we are not in Vendetta with the Angels) in exchange for a current level 4 tech. And it'll prolly be on a tech path that we otherwise wouldn't be on (such as one of the Centauri techs, or a pure research tech - prhaps even Fusion)

Kassi can argue the case that a powerful tech such as Doc: Init is worth at least a level 5 equivalent, and if we also assume that they want to send it, too, to the Gaians (and we agree) then it's worth a level 6 such as Fusion, Orbitals or MMI - that is if we don't get there earlier on our own

And it wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing for the trade to get unscrambled thru a turn replay by the A's either. As we are steering clear of a confrontation with Yang, the CDF isn't currently vital

[Maniac]

Originally posted by Modo
I'm sure, it was a mistake.

Just like you were sure a few days ago the Angels knew what they were doing?

Originally posted by Modo
So, like I told you, they knew, what they were doing by accepting the deal.

While I’m most likely overexaggerating, personally I cannot 100% exclude the possibility the Angels aren’t deliberately fooling around with us.

Consider the following hypothesis:

The two techs that the Angels and Gaians have wanted from us for a long time are DocFlex and EthCalc. Now they have finally obtained them both. Why should they now still maintain friendly relations with us? The Gaians - the Angels’ closest friends - don’t like us, and they know our homeland is nowhere near theirs. Now they have what they want from us, what’s the danger of breaking relations and not living by their agreement?

For this reason I was opposed to giving SocPsych & EthCalc right away to the Angels, but wait until a few turns before they would finish their research project. To prevent them getting wrong ideas.

Also I don’t understand how Mart7x5 could get the wrong tech choices in the simulator. If everyone else got them right, why not he? Especially if mart7x5 has been using the simulator before, it would be a very big coincidence if now suddenly the simulator starting giving the wrong tech choices for some unknown reason. Me thinks this could be a deliberate ploy to try and get one last tech (DocIni – remember last ACDG ) from us before totally breaking relations.

So just to be on the safe side in case the Angels would be deceiving us, I would be opposed to giving the Angels an important military tech such as Doctrine: Initiative. And only a short while ago the Angels offered us Adaptive Economics. Then there was consensus AdapEcon was pretty worthless at the moment and we weren’t interested in obtaining it. I don’t see why we should now give away such an important tech as DocIni (or even worse, an unspecified “future tech” as Hercules has now suggested) in exchange for a useless tech such as AdapEcon, knowing the Angels are unreliable trade partners.

So if we are to continue to trust the Angels, I would propose that the Angels have to be very open to us and disclose important information so we can know their current situation:

• Mart7x5 should send us the excel file where he concluded what tech choices the Angels could get.
• Mart7x5 should send us the simulation game where he supposedly got yet another set of tech choices (see one of his posts in the embassy).
• The Angels should send us a screenshot of their F2 lab summary, so we can confirm what tech they are researching, what their tech cost is, how many labs they already have accumulated, and how many labs they annually produce. I asked mart7x5 about this earlier, but he evaded giving an answer: “Regarding estimated time of research completion, that would require prediction quite far into the future of our growth and decisions.” It isn’t that hard to look at your F2 screen and check how many years remaining before you research your next tech…

Furthermore, while we are solving this matter, the Angels should not be allowed to make use of the technologies we send them (= no switch to democracy, no building of rec commons and crèches), nor trade them to the Gaians.


As to possible compensations for the Angel contract breaking, I would like to add the following proposals to the list if the Angels aren’t allowed to replay:

• We cancel the deal with the Angels to get IntInt. Instead we renegotiate with the Morganites. We’ll probably get it much faster from them anyway: the Angel tech cost is around 500, their labs production probably around 25, meaning we’ll have to wait 20 years before we get to see IntInt. As compensation for not getting IntInt, the Angels have to pay us 300 credits instead (250 for EthCalc, 50 for SocPsych), and not trade EthCalc to the Gaians. If they do trade EthCalc to the Gaians, the credits they owe us rise to 550.
• Alternative: The Angels switch research to whatever the Gaians are researching. The Gaians give the Angels the tech after Gaia has researched it, and the Angels switch to IntInt. To compensate for the delay in researching IntInt this causes, the Angels have to pay us a sum in credits equal to the labs they’ve lost due to switching research.

In any case, I don’t think it would be a good idea to give the Angels any more tech, unless they can immediately pay for it in credits. Would be around 500 credits, with their current tech cost…

[Googlie]

Welll, we got our ruling:

PM from Drogue with techtrade ruling

I'm afraid I can't allow that. Parallel turns for diplomacy are only allowed with the AI, and only then if trade offers are not accepted. The Rubin techchoice simulator is of course allowed, but it not being perfect, or not working properly, is not a reason to replay a turn. They accepted those techs, and to replay would change that, even if nothing else, which is clearly altering something that has been decided, and whatever the reasons for deciding on that course of action (whether it was a rogue turn, played by someone unauthorised or on the assumption that the simulator was correct) it must stand.

So, Kassi, let's expand the trade into a mini blockbuster, with a futures such as Planetary economics or Cyberethics

(or, Maniac, can you confirm/negate that Int Int would be offered them if we sent Secrets to them (for Adaptive Economics perhaps) - or Optical Computers? (also for AdaptEcon - we'll have Opticals next turn from a Zaksteal)

[Maniac]

If I can trust my originial analysis, which seems to be the case, they should be able to select IntInt if they get another tech. (Personally I'd prefer to give them an as useless tech as possible in exchange for AdapEcon, meaning Optical Computers.)

[Modo44]

Originally posted by Maniac
Just like you were sure a few days ago the Angels knew what they were doing?

Yes, and I still am. They were sure about their plans, and they accepted, that they were responsible for doing that research. The plans backfired, because of a mistake on their part. This is what I said, and it is not in cotradiction to their actions so far.

Originally posted by Maniac
While I’m most likely overexaggerating, personally I cannot 100% exclude the possibility the Angels aren’t deliberately fooling around with us.

Consider the following hypothesis:
(No need to quote - it's in the post above.)

It's a possibility, I agree. But if that was the case, they would hardly agree to replay the turn, since both techs have been sent to them, don't you think? And they did, without arguing.

[Googlie]

While wielding "the big stick" always feels good, it's only effective if we actually have a big stick to wield.

And in this case, we only have the Invincible that's anywhere near Angels territory.

I see our choices as:

We wait until the Angels deliver Int Int, however long that takes

We facilitate their getting it earlier thru sending/trading a requisite tech that will allow Int Int to appear as a choice. (Presumably they elected to switch to Doc Init when they accepted our 2 techs - would any other selection {such as secrets, Opticals or HEC} have guaranteed Int Int as a next choice?).

As I posted earlier, I don't miind waiting for the tech - after all, all 3 other teams have now promised not to build the CDF. yang doesn't need to, and we can steal int Int from Lal or Zak if they get it first

And we don't care if the Angels lose lab points thru a switch to get back on Int Int track. Or if they need to solicit Gaian help to make it work faster.

So If the excell shows it works, I'd trade Secrets or Oprticals for Adaptive Economics, let them then switch to int Int (if indeed it would come up then as a tech chocie) and we'll get it in due course. Or I'd just sit it out until we eventually get it from them

But I agree with maniac - we don't trade/sell/gift Doc Initiative to them

[Maniac]

Originally posted by Modo44
It's a possibility, I agree. But if that was the case, they would hardly agree to replay the turn, since both techs have been sent to them, don't you think? And they did, without arguing.

If they were deceiving us, they could safely claim to us they are willing to replay the turn. After all, if it wasn't a mistake and they deliberately accepted these techs knowing they wouldn't be able to select IntInt, Drogue would be forced to rule a replay is not allowed.

[Googlie]

We need to get the Angels to change techs this year, to minimize their lab point losses

As their time is running out, and as Kassi isn't online, shouild I PM to Herc and IT Mart as well as post in the embassy that we suggest that they send us Adapt Econ pre-accepted and we'll, in turn send next year Optical Computers, and that they should change to that right now - that'll bring up Int Int next year as a choice.

[Googlie]

And maybe say that in compensation for their lost lab points (altho it was their mistake) they're free to get what they can from the Gaians in exchange for Opticals going to them

[Googlie]

Sent as a PM to IT Mart and Hercules, and posted in the Embassy

To: Data Angels:

Drogue has refused the replay

The Junta is unwilling to trade Doc: Initiative to any faction at this point, especially in light of our recently promulgated Modo Doctrine. We are prepared to wait the requisite number of years - if need be - for your delivery of Intellectual Integrity

There may be a faster way.

The Angels change research right now to Optical Computers. We will send Opticals this year (2153 for us) in exchange for your sending us Adaptive Economics this year. This then guarantees that Int Int will appear as a choice for the Angels in your 2154 year

We recognize that both techs are not particularly useful to either of our factions at this pont in time - however Opticals does open the possibility that the Angels might beat Morgan to Applied Relativity and the Superconductor

And in recognition of your lost lab points, we would place no onward trading restrictions on Opticals - that might net another technology or some energy credits from your Gaian partners.