History of the World XI [Diplomacy Game] [Organization II]

[Asmodeous]

When you have an option like "Take over AI" that allows you to drop people and add people over and over at whim, having that as a "feature" strikes me as... not right.

Sorry, I don't buy that that's a "feature". The "Take over AI" checkbox overrides the requirement to have people logged in. That is the point of it.

If you don't have "Take over AI" checked, you can't LAUNCH the game until it is full. That is a feature.

If you toggle "Take over AI" it lets you launch the game without people so that games can continue while people drop in and out. That is a feature.

The "Take over AI" toggle not functioning as it is intended and functioning like it was not checked is not a "feature".

That is a bug.

Me.

[arvcran]

Originally posted by Asmodeous
When you have an option like "Take over AI" that allows you to drop people and add people over and over at whim, having that as a "feature" strikes me as... not right.

Sorry, I don't buy that that's a "feature". The "Take over AI" checkbox overrides the requirement to have people logged in. That is the point of it.

If you don't have "Take over AI" checked, you can't LAUNCH the game until it is full. That is a feature.

If you toggle "Take over AI" it lets you launch the game without people so that games can continue while people drop in and out. That is a feature.

The "Take over AI" toggle not functioning as it is intended and functioning like it was not checked is not a "feature".

That is a bug.

Me.

I understand where you are coming from.

Here is how I understand the 'Allow take over AI' feature:

During a game if a player drops out and peeps vote to continue the players CIV is then taken over by the AI. Conversly when the game is launched 'new' and there are actual 'AI' slots (different from OPEN but not filled by a player) and the game is launched, there will be AI players. (Having Allow take over AI has nothing to do with allowing a game launch and be played). The 'Allow take over AI' feature allows for a person outside of the game to enter the game as one of the AI slots. Without this feature players could not join a game in progress - period. It's function is to prevent players from joining after a vote was taken or simply to keep the initial set of players only. It affects what can happen when the game is in progress allowing or disallowing players from the outside joining in taking over an unfilled (AI) CIV, and not wither play is allowed to initiate.

The argument is of course, and here is where I see where you are coming from, if the allow AI is on, what difference does it make 'when' a game is saved. The only answer I have for you is this: allow take over AI means anyone can play the game for any duration and they can be different players it is not important. The thing is it is up to the 'players' to decide when they drop out not the others - as would happen if you are allowed to continue playing after a reload ... it is a fuzzy rule and is implemented to combat allowing unfair advantage.

The 'feature' I am describing is different in this way from take over AI: when a game is saved with x amount of players the game should and only could be reloaded, launched then played if and only if all players from the previous session are present (in theory - actually the same number of players - x). This prevents players from loading the game in between sessions and testing out things giving them an unfair advantage.

Launching a new game allows you to set the 'previous number of players in essence' and hence you may launch and play without all the slots filled by a human player.

This 'feature' may be inconvenient, but, I suspect, is designed with tournament play in mind. It is not a bug.
One can argue that perhaps this should have been an optional feature rather than a rigid one. It is not perfect either as CS has come up with a work around.

[condor223]

Dan Cole has reminded me he needs a sub for England next session. Anyone interested?

[Robert]

I've sent out a sub-request to all diplomacy players I know. Waiting for a response.

[Toni]

So if we have one player less (Dacole) on Friday we can't play the last save?

Can we load the game in the game lobby without a pass and just hope someone joins us?

Well if we can't find a sub i can try my laptop and load the missing player in this case Dacole and play a turn for him so we can start the game and just exit then?

So how was Deity able to get that good save that last session? Some how he had all of us as AI - so this allowed us to log and play with no problems - ANY IDEAS?

[Robert]

Everyone must have a 3.03 version installed!!! you can download it from the civ4 or firaxis site

How to have a dual install:
- install civ
- install BtS
- patch BtS tot 303 (download file)
- make a copy of both your BtS folders so you get:
\My Games\Beyond the Sword
\My Games\Copy of Beyond the Sword

and

\Civilization IV\Beyond the Sword
\Civilization IV\Copy of Beyond the Sword

- Rename the "Copy of Beyond the Sword" folders into: "Beyond the Sword 303" (or something, make both folders have the same name)

- now you can start regular BtS from the 'normal' folder (and patch it from within the game) and start v303 from the Beyond the Sword 303 folder.

@Toni: we're not sure if the game will play if all spots are filled. Worst case we have to fall back to 303 and 8 turns ago.

No, we can't load the game without the pass. The pass is in the game since we played it. It's just there.

[Frank Johnson]

Ugh. Installing 2 versions is more annoying for some of us. Wasting another 2-3gb for another copy of civ doesnt sound useful. I'll patch back if I have to but at least make your mind up which version we'll use before the session.

[condor223]

Everyone must have a 3.03 version installed!!! you can download it from the civ4 or firaxis

Ok, you realize you can't launch 3.03 from the lobby. It will have to be Dir IP for that start.

As soon as you go to the lobby you will be updated to 3.13asap!.

I'm making a copy of the game.. grr.
I should have a copy of every version of civ in order to keep up with the epic type games i get interested in.
Nolz.

[deity]

Now I'm confused!

Cyber, I thought you fixed that save I posted so we could continue as 3.13?

I have both versions installed - it's easy to do but it's pretty outrageous that we have to; not to mention time lost in a couple of games now.

[deity]

Originally posted by Toni
So how was Deity able to get that good save that last session? Some how he had all of us as AI - so this allowed us to log and play with no problems - ANY IDEAS?

Yeah, I'm just trying to think how that was done. I have a save at the end of that last 3.03 session which doesn't load in 3.13 BUT the one I used I think was saved after all left the game and I voted on my own to study the map etc. Possibly. It's the same turn but all the other civs are AI and that's what everyone logged into at the beginning of the 3.13 session - Arvcran said it was slightly different to Cyber's save so I guess the AI that took civs that hadn't ended turn moved units maybe.

[arvcran]

Let's just go with Cyber's Idea of dropping connection using 3.13 and each saving the game.

Sure we can find one or two peeps to join the game just to get us started for this one time.

I don't want to mess around trying to have two versions of BtS where both versions are not working properly.

Please!

[Robert]

@Deity, sorry, I tried to let others fix it, but so far I got no response from the test/firaxis guys

I've played around a bit with the saves yesterday, I tried to save the game in 3.03 after all players had gone, and tried to load that one, but that didn't work either (while Deity suggests that did the trick)

I must say that I saved from the voting window though, not an independant save. I'll try that right now.

An extra BtS installation will cost about 1,5 GB.

[Robert]

Ok, that worked.

I've loaded the (3.03) save of session 5 in 3.03.
Then the vote window came up, I voted "save and continue", after that I saved the game manually.

Then I closed 3.03 and started 3.13, loaded the manually saved game from 3.03, and I could move.

The game 'removes' all missing players after the rest (only me in this case) votes "save and continue playing". That save happens BEFORE that removal happened. The save I did after did just not contain any of the other players, except me.

My theory is that since 3.13 doesn't have that vote window anymore, it doesn't remove the missing players, which breaks it.

Does the vote window come up in 3.13 when someone drops from the game? If so, then that'll fix it, imho, because we can do the 'pull the plug, vote and save' thing from now on.

I suggest that we just start with the 'old' 3.03 save in 3.13. That costs us 12 turns, or something ()


Conclusion: we play 3.13 next friday, unless someone disagrees and has a better idea, ok?

[Robert]

w00000t I fixed it

- I installed a beta patch between 3.03 and 3.13
- that patch still had the "vote screen"
- that patch was able to load the 3.13 save
- So I voted to "continue playing" and afterwards I saved the game

Now I have a save of our last turn of our last session that works 8) (tested it)

yeah me!
yeah us!

Conclusion: no need to install 3.03, we can just continue in 3.13 where we stayed, and at the end of the session all that want to save the file just close their internet connection, vote "continue and save" and save the game AFTER the vote-box has gone!

w00t

[Robert]

Working save: