History of the World XI [Diplomacy Game] [Organization II]

[Toni]

To Deity

Your strategy in this game, if you like, IS smart diplo

Well mate i'm following your advice from what you said before i joined the diplo community. You said Toni its not about skills - you should be a good diplo player to survive these kind of games.

Now that i do well with the diplomacy you make it sounds its a bad thing.

[LzPrst]

ahem. may i interrupt the incurring mayhem and spark war?


if I may make some comments based on my own observations that is.

Deity, Frank, CS, and Aussie_Lurker seem to me the most prolific posters. most of their nation's attitudes, disagreements, alliances and such is shown fairly clearly in the story thread. their inner and outer workings are on display and even though they play by a game-mechanic-max-effeciency-cooperation style of play (though slightly unrealistic, it is only expectable) this ALSO has a VERY clear story base, which is obvious to all.

the other alliance was however not strongly based in diplo. ethiopia and holland always showed good relations so their cooperation was understandable, or expected. but most of the other civs had hardly any diplomatic dealings in the story thread. this was the same criticism i had of England. they never seemed to summarize or elaborate on their activities. now I can understand that people wanted to keep their cooperations secret, but that effectively ruins the diploing because the more you work with other nations the more you want to keep it secret and so eventually you become a closed nation not posting in the diplothread, because you can't reveal your positions. that is BAD for diplogames.

and let me just ruin the game by saying, there was an "alliance", or rather, a loose cooperation consisting mainly of very frivolous tech trading between what I consider "the rest of the world". notice. this was several sessions ago when I played Russia last. and I considered myself loosely affiliated to this cooperation merely for the purpose of getting some military techs so I could build a potent army.

the reason this cooperation began was because it was the only way to rival the development of portugal /w allies. unfortunately it has been virtually unmentioned by most participants in the diplogame thread. partly because of the desire to stay under the radar. but because of this desire you are now in the situation you are in.

the game situation is causing disagreement and discord. which IS NOT THE OBJECT OF THE GAME!!! we play these games for the enjoyment. not just to win. winning is nice, but it is NOT everything. ladder games are about winning only. we are seeking to make this something different. people HAVE to keep that in mind when they play. it is the whole reason for why we make story posts. to make it different from other games. and if we DONT make diploposts then the game devolves into a ladder game where everyone ends up pissed off at eachother because they feel people have broken the diplo-ideals.




Now. Let me offer a small suggestion. Deity, you are right, there is probably a large alliance. basically an alliance created to contain your and your allies' power. this is only natural. however, the "cultures" and civilizations involved seem completely foreign to eachother (and quite anonymous) to the outside viewer.

So. to prevent this, in future diplogames. NO MORE SECRET ALLIANCES!

Also. Same-Religion-only-alliances is something that I in principle disagree with, because it is unrealistic. but too often I see civ's on the opposite sides of the world being allied from the ancient era simply because they can. this is more unrealistic.






Sorry for the long post. but you should read it all. (and if you're wondering why I have so much time to post while on vacation, I'm uploading pictures and it takes a while).

This same thing seems to happen in a lot of diplogames. Work past it. Finish this game. POST IN THE %^#$$ DIPLOTHREAD.
And get ready to lose horribly when I return for the next game.

[The_Aussie_Lurker]

As I have said previously, I don't care whether I win or lose, because I enjoy the interaction which only an MP game can bring. I will be disappointed if I get wiped out due to a purely 'gamey' issue like ths dispute between Frank, CS & Toni. However, if I can survive amidst the current vissicitudes & bring out a good overall story-then I will FEEL like I have won .

Aussie_Lurker.

[deity]

Originally posted by Toni
To Deity

Well mate i'm following your advice from what you said before i joined the diplo community. You said Toni its not about skills - you should be a good diplo player to survive these kind of games.

Now that i do well with the diplomacy you make it sounds its a bad thing.

Like I said Toni, I wasn't being sarcastic. You are a brilliant diplo player and a great addition to the diplo stable.

[Robert]

the reason this cooperation began was because it was the only way to rival the development of portugal /w allies.

Just for the record, the Islamitic Alliance only exists for the last session. It's only 2,5 sessions that Germany and America are allied b/c of Islam, and Portugal jumped in last session. There was a road towards that alliance, but it's not as if we've been allied for half or more of the game.

I have honestly not been allied to anyone. I just wanted to see where the game was going, to make my alliances later. I don't like the idea to pick alliances from turn 1 on.

[deity]

Great post lz

I'll think about all that.

[Robert]

when CS started denouncing the Native Americans publicly because of their views on UVA's shoving Islam down everyone's throats.

For the record, America never jumped on the natives, the natives jumped on America, started to insult Islam and it's prophet. It's honestly not my goal to sail to the far far Natives to conquer them! I like their approach, btw, it stirs things up, but it wasn't America who was trying to bully the natives. Eventough I've said multiple times that all should embrace Islam And all should

[deity]

BTW When are you in Sydney?

[Asmodeous]

Originally posted by CyberShy

when CS started denouncing the Native Americans publicly because of their views on UVA's shoving Islam down everyone's throats.

For the record, America never jumped on the natives, the natives jumped on America, started to insult Islam and it's prophet. It's honestly not my goal to sail to the far far Natives to conquer them! I like their approach, btw, it stirs things up, but it wasn't America who was trying to bully the natives. Eventough I've said multiple times that all should embrace Islam And all should

Oh piffle! They did not. They are a peaceful people who questioned the reasoning of forced-conversion.

And for their questions were insulted and threatened!

Me.

[Robert]

After you insulted Islam first, we threatened you for obvious reasons! One cannot insult Allah or any of his prophets and live!

Now convert!

[Frank Johnson]

Toni has admitted as much that he intentionally gifted technology to the AI russians to prevent me from making any inroads against them. This combined with the AI's ability to upgrade troops for next to nothing drastically effected my plans.

Basically it was toni that went down the "gamey" path of meta gaming against me, since he knew I was effective with troops.

His stance is highly hypocritical. Toni knows my basis in the game is to create a balance of power using military force. I became unfriendly towards the Portugese when it became clear they were becoming too powerful of a force. Toni encouraged and even supported this.

However once Toni and his allies started rocketing above the charts and my opinion of his alliance started to fall, he takes it as some kind of sin against diplo gaming that I'd seek to contain the power of someone running away with the game.

All I can say is, it's not personal. When portgual warped ahead, I went against portugal. Their weakness was not military. They had a better military than me. Their weakness was trade and diplomacy, so I cut off trade and diplomacy.

Toni's weakness is not trade and diplomacy. Toni's weakness is having no military.

So you're minding your own business, building up troops to defend yourself against an AI horde that used to be a friend ally of yours, then all of a sudden it has all the best technology in the world only Toni could provide. Now tell me, what is an appropriate responce? Bash my head against the artifically strong AI empire while Toni techs away? Or punish Toni for dealing with my foes?

I was really hoping people would at the very least take this game seriously. I know from past experience that Toni, or Deity, or Ozzy or any number of players can make great advances in trade and tech when left completely unfettered to tech whore and cottage spam. This is not in question. It is no necessary to organize large 10+ player games to prove that point. I play for the interaction. Can Toni's no military high tech strategy work against a strong assault? Toni already knows the answer. I just have a larger audience to show the virtues of balance of military power. Armed forces and wars are needed for an interesting diplomacy game. Indeed unless we are to play out the same boring diplo games of who gets the best land and who agrees to whore the most techs to get to a space ship first, the game will never evolve. The series may need to even play a few no spaceship, no time victory games to make sure the victories are made through domianion or diplomacy wins, requiring a combination of economy, tecchnology, diplomacy, and military.

Until diplo players lose their tendancy to ignore the military, you will continue to be pandered to by the better players (toni, ozzy, deity, and other upcoming players) who will shape the game to ensure their victory and protect your feelings.

Instead you should fight, if not to win, then to be a king maker, and leave your influence in the game. With the addition of vassal states to civ there is no reason to fear wars, even large ones, even domination victories.

The era of tech whoring and cottage spamming needs to end, and the era of balance of power needs to begin. Down with the warrior sentries. Long live real militaries and real games!

[The_Aussie_Lurker]

I have no 'warrior sentries' Frank. I have had-since before the last game-a relatively up to date army consisting primary of macemen, pikemen & Oromo Warriors. I confess that having a whopping great army of Russians wandering my territory in the game before last made me realise that I was under-garrisoned, so I did some upgrading & unit building-something I tend to continue in future games (though I will first need to talk to whomever I can get to sub for me). I doubt I can match your military capacity, but-then again-I only have 6 cities. However, if pushed to the wall I believe I could put up a decent fight. Also, take a look at my lands, & you will see that I am NOT a cottage spammer like some people-I refuse to spam cottages on principle, because its a gamey strategy. My point is that I don't start wars unless I think I have a good chance at victory. If you come to my lands seeking war, then I will defend myself to the best of my abilities. If, however, you finally wish to seek out a more co-operative arrangement with me, then I will happily do that too if its in my interests. Just don't expect me to sacrifice a perfectly good storyline for you .

Aussie_Lurker.

[Asmodeous]

However once Toni and his allies started rocketing above the charts and my opinion of his alliance started to fall, he takes it as some kind of sin against diplo gaming that I'd seek to contain the power of someone running away with the game.

I think his complaint that you were making it personal came with the cries of "cheater," "coward," and other such things tossed in both his direction and the directions of the various entities that were benefitting from his rather skilled diplomatic workings.

I suspect that had you left those parts of it out of the discussion to begin with, he would not have claimed that you had made it personal and therefore a "sin against diplogaming".

Me.

[arvcran]

You will notice however that only the dutch have defensive alliance with the 7 other nations! The other nations have 1 or 2 defensive pacts only.

[arvcran]

CS do we have a save game? I cannot find your post with the saved game ... my autosaves have been overwritten ... do you post in this thread or the story thread?