History of the World XI [Diplomacy Game] [Organization II]

[Toni]

Will i cause problems again

[arvcran]

Thought canuck soldier was in Afghanistan?

[Robert]

Originally posted by Toni
Will i cause problems again

Not if you submit your votes to OzzyKP

[Frank Johnson]

The Case For Military Victory

I would like to make my case for military victory.

Right now player run civilizations in this game there are two groups.

* A set of (3) players who have cooperated in developing their economies, militaries and shared faiths, leading to a fair level of technology, economy, and a strong military.

* A loose set of (6) players who have cooperated in a limited fasion to boost their economy and technlogy, leading to strong economy, technology, but weak military.

The set of (3) players have amassed enough military force declare a domination victory. Between gunboat diplomacy (do this or else) and direct military action, we believe that no force on Terra can currently stop the planned military action / domination victory.

The (3) players have established enough of a diplomatic basis for the launch of their planned domination victory, including the spread of a shared religion, arms trading to potientally hostile AI players, and jealousy of affluence. The total lack of military force in the (6) other countries also encourages a military assault based on their wealth, techs which can be claimed as booty, as well as strong economies to be captured.

It is also the opinion of this player, that even in the scope of "diplomatic limited wars" as described in the Diplogame FAQ, that any opposing players to the group of (3) players, and any players to agree to be vassals or neutral in the inital conflict would lead to a clear domination victory for the group of (3) players.

I would like to congratulate all the participants in this diplomacy game for a well played effort and look forward to playing with all of you in future diplomacy games.

[deity]

I think this is a good scenario for a diplo game. And if it were to happen it is not a normal domination victory but an Islamic Empire victory with 3 starting civs.

[deity]

If you look at the contact diagram you'll see that 6 nations have a defensive pact together.

[Robert]

Yeah, let's make it a holy islamitic victory

I'm developping an idea where in future diplogames alliances must share a state religion!
I think that gives an interesting new idea to diplogaming and religions.

From free religion on alliances are allowed based on other (in-game) conditions. If you want to be allies, share religions. It makes alliances clear, and it's much more realistic! I'll post about it in a seperate thread (later).

[Asmodeous]

I'm developping an idea where in future diplogames alliances must share a state religion!
I think that gives an interesting new idea to diplogaming and religions.

From free religion on alliances are allowed based on other (in-game) conditions. If you want to be allies, share religions. It makes alliances clear, and it's much more realistic! I'll post about it in a seperate thread (later).

I don't think this makes sense.

For instance, in WWII, you had a secular state (Russia) allied with Christian States.

In modern times you have Christian States aligned with Jewish, Secular, and in a few cases Muslim States (like Jordan for instance).

You can look over history and find all sorts of cases where different religions found good reasons to work together, in fact a great many religions are non-violent religions that tend to work together with any other religion calmly.

Buddhism, Shinto, Taoism (which again isn't really a religion. . .), and Neo-Pagan come to mind as examples. . .

I think that limitting it by religion causes two things to happen.

1. You're hamstringing stories strictly because you or someone else had an issue with how certain things were done in the current game. Which is a poor solution to a different problem altogether, and will just lead to further issues.

2. You're hamstringing the stories to a particular, and poor, game mechanic, and almost entirely forcing poor relations between two empires strictly because one beat another to a religion, and that group ended up having to found a different religion altogether.


I think that religion should be a tool for good story-writing, and not an underlying force to make people disagree.

I mean, think about current world politics. The main reason that there is so much strife currently between Muslims and Christians in reality is due to the fact, and series of misunderstandings, that the two religions (three with the Jews included) hold the same city as the Home of their religion, and this has caused, over time, countless wars to reclaim the Holy Land, and caused strife and conquest and therefore bad blood between the religions.

If you read the holy books from Christianity, Judaism, and Islam, the books are very similar, teach pretty much the same things, and all three of them claim to follow the God of Abraham. Yet they always, due to constant disagreements and strife based on cultural distinctions (as compared to actual religious distinctions) have been at odds.

Religion shouldn't force people apart, it should force people to write and explain why they've come together or why they've grown apart.

Just as much as they've chosen to take their religions (or philosophies) and use those to work together (such as the Dutch/Ethiopian situation where the Dutch started as the same religion and expanded it out to their religion, or the Dutch/NativeAm situation where the Natives are Philosophical Taoists and have no strife with any based on belief structure as non-action is a main part of their "religion") or to be at odds (such as the UAV wanting to force-convert to Islam, and therefore being at odds with the Natives based on the fact that the Natives are insulted that someone should tell them they "have" to change their view, even though they see such an action as empty and unnecessary).

I think you're seeing a different problem than what is really going on, and the problem of what is really going on is much smaller than one really thinks it is, but has been entirely blown out of proportion because things got heated during the game last night, insults were tossed around, and there was a lot of yelling.

I further think that your current intended solutions are not going to affect things any, and such issues can still be caused, and imho it kinda reduces the potential quality of stories.

Yes, this was a dissertational thesis, I know. :/ Sorry.

I was on a roll. . .

Me.

[Asmodeous]

Ok, this is your fault, I'm still on a roll.

The problem isn't in the alleged "8v3" that people see going. Also, I would like to stress that it wasn't necessarily the 8 that made it the v3. Bear in mind that the 3 are part of a rather Violent "You must change to our religion!" Islamic group that have put themselves at odds with everyone, and the 8 are... well.. everyone else. It's not just that those 8 have had friendly relations (and as a mention tech trading was fairly limited amongst the lot with me early on and didn't really start going until the Islamic Trinity started to posture in a more violent manner..).

The 3 blame the 8 for the situation, and the 8 are partially at fault, but really, so are the 3. I mean, look at current world affairs (again, correlation time!). The Middle East, which is a smattering of maybe 8-10 countries or so, feel that it is "Us vs. Them" and that they are the Victims of the entire Judeo-Christian world because everyone seems to be against them and siding with the Jews, yet they're constantly violently attacking all who disagree with them, either physically or rhetorically.

It's the way of things.

But that's not really the point I'm getting it, it just occurred to me when I started rambling.

The problem is here:

Story Thread:
---- Session 9 - Friday October 26th ----
October 26th - CyberShy
October 22nd - Asmodeous
October 22nd - Frank Johnson
October 20th - Nolan
October 20th - The_Aussie_Lurker
---- Session 8 - Friday October 19th ----
---- Session 7 - Friday October 12th ----
October 12th - LzPrst
October 11th - Deity
October 8th - arvcran
---- Session 6 - Friday October 5th ----
---- Session 5 - Friday September 28th ----
September 18th - Toni
---- Session 4 - Friday September 21th ----
September 21th - dacole
---- Session 3 - Friday September 14th ----
---- Session 2 - Friday September 7th -----
September 6th - Beta
---- Session 1 - Friday August 31th ---------

Organization Thread:
---- Session 9 - Friday October 26th ----
October 26th - CyberShy
October 26th - Nolan
October 26th - Frank Johnson
October 25th - Toni
October 21th - Deity
October 19th - Mr.Lincoln
---- Session 8 - Friday October 19th ----
October 19th - LzPrst
October 18th - Dacole
---- Session 7 - Friday October 12th ----
October 12th - arvcran
October 8th - Asmodeous
---- Session 6 - Friday October 5th ----
October 6th - Beta
---- Session 5 - Friday September 28th ----
---- Session 4 - Friday September 21th ----
---- Session 3 - Friday September 14th ----
---- Session 2 - Friday September 7th -----
---- Session 1 - Friday August 31th ---------
August 11th - The_Aussie_Lurker

And it's not anyone in particular. It's everyone, and it's not just the lack of posts on the story thread, it's the lack of posts on the organizational thread. Look at how many sessions throughout both of those have zero posts from anyone. Yes, I'm a culprit and haven't been up to date, and that happens. Life gets in the way sometimes, but so is... well.. everyone. It's the nature of the business. Life is busy and complicated, and people have to play catch up and scramble to throw together a bunch of weeks worth of information to put in story form, and when they lag behind the lack of communication makes people think "Wth? Why is all this going on? There's no reason for it! RABBLERABBLERABBLE!" When in actuality there's a lot of very good reasons.

I don't think limitting story-writing to Game Mechanics is going to solve this issue. It's just going to make it worse.

Me.

[Toni]

but an Islamic Empire victory with 3 starting civs.

Sorry to spoil the plan - but this is one civ victory game not a team game guys! Its called a diplo game not Team battleground

[The_Aussie_Lurker]

OK, I confess that I am confused about things here (being my first HOTW game & all). I thought my sole responsibility was to post in the STORY thread. I thought this thread was just for boring 'Organisational' matters, like if you're not going to be around for the game (which reminds me guys, I won't be here for next week, so can someone find a sub amongst their other diplo groups?)
As for this 8vs3 business, well from my standpoint that is total RUBBISH. Yes I have a long-standing alliance with both Toni & Nolan-which I have sought to explain at length in all my stories. As for everyone else, my relations are totally pragmatic. If I see an advantage in trading with the Portuguese, or the Americans or the Incans-then I will do so. If I feel that the Native Americans need a bit of a helping hand, then I will give them a boost if its in my long-term interests. I haven't helped the Germans out because-quite frankly-they have NEVER ASKED FOR IT. Nor have the English or the Romans for that matter. Even with my long-term friends, I WILL NOT hand over a tech if it gives me an advantage in terms of a Wonder I am going for. Additionally, I have started to tighten the diplomatic screws with Toni over the issue of certain territorial rights, which just goes to show that even centuries long alliances have their LIMITS. If I get no satisfaction from diplomacy, then I WILL consider my military options-albiet in a limited fashion! The only reason I went to war with the English was because-as a human-Dacole was making the life of the Ethiopians VERY DIFFICULT, & the AI didn't make life much easier. When he cut his borders with me, spied on me constantly & started to threaten me with war, then I realised enough was enough. My desire to expand slightly northward definitely played into it, but the groundwork was being laid by me-with support from a human Russia-over 3 games prior to my declaration of war. As Russia was no longer human controlled when I declared war, I got none of the help I had originally been counting on.
So, I guess my point is that from my perspective there are NO SOLID 3vs8 blocs as were referred to in the game, & I am insulted that some people (well one person) seems to believe that I would sacrifice Roleplaying for in-game benefit. They can invade me if they wish, & I will try & put up a good strong fight if they do. However, should their actions have no genuine basis within the story, then I will have to seriously reconsider my continued role in the current game. I don't like to resort to threats, but I also don't like to be accused of CHEATING! Comprende?

[Frank Johnson]

Guys, I have intel on your Civs.

Until I started actively complaining about you guys keeping warriors, archers, and spearmen as your only garrison troops throughout the Industrial era, that's all you had. After I reminded you that this is not a "No War Builder Game" but a diplomacy game, you guys setup a few grenadiers and cannons along side your archers. No offense, but all we have to is march right now. Really we didn't have to give you any warning. You already lost the game by allowing a military alliance to form that had virtually all the trained and massed troops on the planet. If I have to post the screenshots of your military neglect to make my point I will.

Simply put you've already lost, even with a warning and a headstart you didn't deserve. You guys played builder, not diplo. If you had completed even 1 game of Civ4 against the AI you know you would not get away with what you are doing right now, so what makes you think human players should have to put up with it and not try to win with force?

As to if we want to decide who "wins" the game, we can do that after your 6 civs are burned, occupied, and made into vassal states. If we choose to agree to a team domination victory and you're in no position to argue, then you don't get a vote.

I've seen this pattern too many times in too many diplo games.

DIPLO != BUILDER
MAKE AN ARMY

[Toni]

Don't worry Marcus i was accused of CHEATING by someone as well - Another said that i use ppl to win the game every diplo game

Don't know but we lost there for a sec the whole sportmenship in this game, pretty sad.

We all know eachothers now for sometime now (I think that we all are friends here) - so hearing insults is very hurtful at least for me.

[Frank Johnson]

Trading with the AI for tech is a long standing no-no in diplomacy games.

Originally posted by Toni
Don't worry Marcus i was accused of CHEATING by someone as well - Another said that i use ppl to win the game every diplo game

Don't know but we lost there for a sec the whole sportmenship in this game, pretty sad.

We all know eachothers now for sometime now (I think that we all are friends here) - so hearing insults is very hurtful at least for me.

[Toni]

Well u say trading i did gifting for the record

So its technically not trading