2K Games Announces Sid Meier's Civilization IV: Warlords.

[Alexander I]

Originally posted by Zoid

So you mean that atrocities are not really atrocities until they are discovered?

IMO Hitler was no more evil than Stalin or Mao. It´s just that the utter defeat of Nazi-Germany eradicated all the followers and sycophants... It has nothing to do with atrocities committed, it´s a question of PC and popularity.

No, I don't mean that atrocities aren't really atrocities until they are discovered.

I'm simply attempting to explain why Hitler has been villified more than Stalin or Mao have. I think it has something to do with the United States fighting him directly in a prolonged war and then uncovering his mass murders in his country.

I'm not sure though. Any other explanations for why Hitler is so hated when Stalin and Mao were just as evil and killed more people (granted they had larger populations to work with)?

[Locutus]

Originally posted by Nacht
Stalin does

Well, Hitler doesn't. If it wasn't for his incessant interference with the miiltary strategies of his commanders, there's a good (or at least much better) chance Germany would've won WW2. If you look past the fact he's one of the worst human beings that ever lived, he was a pretty proficient politician: good public speaker, very charismatic, good at taking advantage of circumstances beyond his control (e.g. the Reichstag fire). After all, he turned an in theory perfectly healthy democracy into a one-party dictatorship without breaking any laws or resorting to violence (that came later) -- you can say what you want of him, but that takes some skill. But he had the military leadership abilities of a small cantaloupe

[Son of David]

Doesn't matter whether he was a good general ('warlord') or not. What matters is that he is there to represent the Nazis in a World War II scenario. And besides, maybe we shouldn't have Stalin in because the USSR got defeated by America by 1991? Maybe we should judge the worth of all civs in history by the knowledge we have of them with the benefit of hindsight?

Unless, of course, Stalin and Churchill are simply new leaders and not designed for any scenarios.

[Locutus]

Originally posted by Son of David
What matters is that he is there to represent the Nazis in a World War II scenario.

As far as we know, there's no such scenario. See the news (or Nikolai's post earlier).

[Ninot]

It would be weak to include Churchill and Stalin, Stalin perticularly, and leave out Hitler.

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

Originally posted by Ninot
It would be weak to include Churchill and Stalin, Stalin perticularly, and leave out Hitler.

At the risk of this getting OT, Churchill was no saint, either.

I don't think it's Hitler alone that would cause problems for Firaxis. Nazi symbols are outlawed in Germany, so if the patch became available in Germany, the legal problems could be an unwanted headache.

Karl Donitz has my vote. Heil Donitz!









(that last point was, of course, meant in jest.)

[redstar05]

Personally, i think that leaving out hitler in a ww2 would be really dumb. There have have been countless films, games, books, etc about him. Also, it would be silly because the scenario wouldnt be much of a scenario.

[Alexander I]

Originally posted by Locutus


Well, Hitler doesn't.

I think Nacht was being sarcastic.

[Yosho]

The other thing is that, if Hitler was included, they might not be allowed to sell the game in Germany; they have some very strict laws there about such things.

[Zoid]

Only if the game could be classified as Nazi propaganda AFAIK pictures of Hitler aren´t forbidden...

[Nacht]

Originally posted by Locutus
Well, Hitler doesn't.

I meant of course that Stalin wasn't much of a military genius either. Less so I think. And he is in the game. You can't deny the early war successes under Hitler and the incessant interference is more something of the late war period.

Originally posted by Locutus
he was a pretty proficient politician

More like a strange politician. His biggest asset was that none of his political opponents knew how to handle such a man. Not the Muncheners in the 1920's, nor von Papen in the early 30's or Chamberlain in the late 30's.

Originally posted by Locutus
an in theory perfectly healthy democracy into a one-party dictatorship

Germany at that time was very, very far removed from a perfectly healthy democracy.

Originally posted by Locutus
without breaking any laws or resorting to violence (that came later)

You must be joking

But this is all rather off topic

[Locutus]

The Wolfenstein games are banned in Germany. I'm not up to speed on exactly what is and isn't allowed, but I do know there's a big gray area. Germany is a big market, so if your game is in that gray area you could potentially lose a lot of money as developer/publisher -- few companies will want to take that risk. Swastikas are definitely illegal and references to Nazi names or institutions usually are as well, so Hitler would definitely fall in the gray area, if it's not outright illegal.

Edit:

Originally posted by Nacht
But this is all rather off topic

Yes it is.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Just deactivate the picture for the German release. I'm sure it can't be that hard.

[Willem]

Originally posted by Nacht
More like a strange politician. His biggest asset was that none of his political opponents knew how to handle such a man. Not the Muncheners in the 1920's, nor von Papen in the early 30's or Chamberlain in the late 30's.

Being a good politician means more than an ability to deal with your opponents. You can't deny that Hitler had an uncanny ability to motivate the general population. Just look at some of the crowd reactions in the film footage of some of his speeches. In that way, he was a brilliant politician. He took a fragmented society and in a very short period of time turned it into a well organized and integrated "machine" with a particularly singleminded purpose. If his goals would have been honourable and moral instead of evil, he could have accomplished some great things for Germany, and Europe in general.

[Alexander I]

Lots of American games are renamed in Britain to be politically correct. Star Wars: Rebellion was renamed "Star Wars: Supremacy" so as not to advocate rebellion. Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles was renamed "Teenage Mutant Hero Turtles" because ninjas are assassins.

I don't see why they couldn't just disconnect some piece of code for Hitler's face and have Gerhard Schroeder's come up instead ...