2K Games Announces Sid Meier's Civilization IV: Warlords.

[Son of David]

It's controversial whether to include him or not, since there appears to be some disagreement.



Although any WWII scenario which has Stalin, Churchill, and Roosevelt professionally-designed leaderheads but not Hitler is going to seriously suffer.

[Alexander I]

Hitler was obviously a hideously evil man. There would be widespread objection to his inclusion because of his vicious Holocaust against the Jews. His atrocities are more visible than many other despots' because he was caught in the act, so to say. Stalin's crimes were far worse but were not uncovered to the western world during his lifetime (or even immediately after it). Hitler's crimes were widely publicized and he has become the archetype for demonic villains.

However, I think it is a double standard to rule him out when you include the likes of Stalin and Mao. Stalin killed as many Jews as Hitler and even more of his own people. Mao killed countless thousands of Chinese innocents.

I personally don't have a problem with including any of these dictators (they're quite fun to kill), but some people would take offense apparently (at least as far as Political Correctness goes).

[Son of David]

It's more than hypocritical - it's just plain silly. University and school students are taught about Hitler all the time, and his crimes against humanity. There are World War II scenarios in all the civ games and many, many other games about WWII. Some even have depictions of - gasp! - swastikas.

But despite this we are expected to forego having a leaderhead of Hitler? That makes me suspect there is no WWII scenario in 'Warlords'. What are they going to do? Use professionally-designed artwork for everyone except the Germans? Or will the Nazi player have Bismarck for a leaderhead? Or a flag?

[Alexander I]

I agree.

And it would beyond lame to have all the other WWII leaderheads except Hitler in a scenario. And as much as I hate to say it, most fan-made leaderheads just don't look as good as Firaxis's.

[Willem]

Originally posted by Alexander01
Stalin killed as many Jews as Hitler and even more of his own people.

Curious, what's the difference between a Jewish Russian and all the rest?

[Alexander I]

Originally posted by Willem


Curious, what's the difference between a Jewish Russian and all the rest?

What do you mean? Stalin had special purges of the Jews, in addition to his broad all-encompassing pogroms.

[Willem]

Originally posted by Alexander01


What do you mean? Stalin had special purges of the Jews, in addition to his broad all-encompassing pogroms.

But you're implying there that a Jew can't be a Russian, that there's some distinction between the two. It seems to me that having lived in the country for well over a thousand years, they would be just as much Russians as Stalin's "own people".

[Alexander I]

I don't mean to imply that Russian Jews aren't Russian. However, most people treat German Jews in that manner, as if they weren't German as well as Jewish.

I hate semantic wars. Okay --

Hitler killed millions of his own people, including millions of German and other ethnic Jews in particular.

Stalin killed millions of his own people, including millions of Russian and other ethnic Jews in particular.

Happy?

[Willem]

Originally posted by Alexander01
Happy?

Yes.

[Zoid]

Originally posted by Alexander01
Hitler was obviously a hideously evil man. There would be widespread objection to his inclusion because of his vicious Holocaust against the Jews. His atrocities are more visible than many other despots' because he was caught in the act, so to say. Stalin's crimes were far worse but were not uncovered to the western world during his lifetime (or even immediately after it). Hitler's crimes were widely publicized and he has become the archetype for demonic villains.

However, I think it is a double standard to rule him out when you include the likes of Stalin and Mao. Stalin killed as many Jews as Hitler and even more of his own people. Mao killed countless thousands of Chinese innocents.

I personally don't have a problem with including any of these dictators (they're quite fun to kill), but some people would take offense apparently (at least as far as Political Correctness goes).

So you mean that atrocities are not really atrocities until they are discovered?

IMO Hitler was no more evil than Stalin or Mao. It´s just that the utter defeat of Nazi-Germany eradicated all the followers and sycophants... It has nothing to do with atrocities committed, it´s a question of PC and popularity.

[Zoid]

Originally posted by Son of David
It's more than hypocritical - it's just plain silly. University and school students are taught about Hitler all the time, and his crimes against humanity. There are World War II scenarios in all the civ games and many, many other games about WWII. Some even have depictions of - gasp! - swastikas.

But despite this we are expected to forego having a leaderhead of Hitler? That makes me suspect there is no WWII scenario in 'Warlords'. What are they going to do? Use professionally-designed artwork for everyone except the Germans? Or will the Nazi player have Bismarck for a leaderhead? Or a flag?

The flag for Germany in the "Desert War" scenario is the iron cross on a red background. It looks nice but it´s totally innaccurate in an historical context. Germany has never had a flag like that.

[JackRudd]

I think there should be a special prize for the first person to post a screenshot of Hitler summoning the player and insisting he convert to Judaism.

[Nikolai]

Great idea!

[Tattila the Hun]

"An all-new expansion pack, Warlords pays homage to some of history's greatest military leaders, "

Somehow, I don't see Der Führer fitting into that description.

[Nacht]

Originally posted by Tattila the Hun
Somehow, I don't see Der Führer fitting into that description.

Stalin does