NFL - Are You Ready For Some Football?! - Off Season

[Ben Kenobi]

Doug Flutie kept himself out of the NFL. He signed with Donald Trump's USFL franchise -- prior to the NFL draft.

Between that, an undistinguished early career, then the scab incident, then fleeing to Canada, it's fair to say that Doug Flutie was the one playing politics.

The first two complaints are generally the same. One, he was too small. Two, he was a scab. Where does the actual talent evaluation come in?

[Al B. Sure!]

The Pro Bowl is a popularity contest. Who cares?

And I wouldn't put too much stock in a Pro Bowl nod for Doug Flutie in 1998 in a season in which he put up pedestrian stats in only 10 games, his Pro Bowl nod being entirely because of his story (this was his first year back in the NFL from the CFL).

Also, the 1998 QB situation was abysmal. Guess who else was a Pro Bowler at the QB position that year? The NFC was represented by Steve Young, Randall Cunningham, and Chris Chandler ( CHRIS CHANDLER?!). The AFC? Doug Flutie and Vinny Testaverde

The AFC, if not the entire NFL, was ****ing awful at the QB position in 1998. Rookie Peyton Manning, a 37 year old Dan Marino, 38 year old John Elway, 42 year old Warren Moon, 37 year old Steve Young and 35 year old Randall Cunningham (in the NFC), etc.

Look at this!

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/1998/passing.htm

When Jake Plummer is #4 in yardage, there's a problem.

Even when he made the Pro Bowl, Flutie was the biggest midget!

[Al B. Sure!]

What do Ryan Leaf, Jim Harbaugh, Tony Banks, Charlie Batch, Neil O'Donnell, Kordell Stewart, Steve Beuerlein, Trent Dilfer, Erik Kramer, Bobby Hoying, Danny Kanell, and Donald Hollas all have in common besides every single one of them having been terrible QB's? Yes. They all were starting NFL QB's in that dearth of talent year of 1998 when Doug Flutie, Vinny Testaverde, and Chris Chandler made the Pro Bowl


EDIT: forgot Danny Kanell's horrible ass... and Bobby Hoying

[Ben Kenobi]

And I wouldn't put too much stock in a Pro Bowl nod for Doug Flutie in 1998 in a season in which he put up pedestrian stats

Of course, because it doesn't fit your narrative. Unfortunately it helps my argument that he was a damn good QB and never got a fair shake in the NFL.

BTW, those 'oldies' are his contemporaries.

If we adjust his 10 starts for the entire season, we get 4340 yards, 32 TDs at a 2-1 TD/INT ratio.

Flutie had an excellent year that year, and was well deserving of his pro bowl nomination. Taking a team that he was the backup to a 7-3 record in the games he started and getting to the playoffs. Since Flutie left the Bills have done nothing.

[Al B. Sure!]

Of course, because it doesn't fit your narrative. Unfortunately it helps my argument that he was a damn good QB and never got a fair shake in the NFL.

BTW, those 'oldies' are his contemporaries.

I already gave the true narrative a few months ago. Doug Flutie becomes the starting QB of the Buffalo Bills, complete with all the stars from the Jim Kelly era and the #1 defense in the NFL and a top-5 rushing attack... and does what you expect a backup QB to do in an entirely run-first team that couldn't trust Flutie to actually throw the ball. Nothing more.

[Ben Kenobi]

entirely run-first team that couldn't trust Flutie to actually throw the ball. Nothing more.

That's unfortunately not what his stats say. If you adjust 10 starts over 16 starts you get yardage numbers in excess of everyone else that year. Plus third overall in TD in the entire NFL. Those are all-pro numbers.

[Al B. Sure!]

Need I remind you of my previous post on this issue?

Spoiler:

In 1997, Jim Kelly had retired and his heir, Todd Collins, struggled to lead the Bills to a 6-10 record despite the team retaining most of the pieces of their early 90's dominant team. After that season, coach Marv Levy retired and Wade Philips was brought in and the team made a big trade, giving up a 1st rounder to acquire Rob Johnson from the Jaguars, Johnson having made his name with a stunning performance in place of an injured Mark Brunell (Johnson had one of the best QB performances in a starting debut). The Bills, with a bunch of aging veterans but some young explosive talent in Eric Moulds and Antowain Smith, were in a win-now mode and saw that Collins wasn't going to be ready to take them anywhere, so were more than willing to take a gamble on a guy like Johnson. Furthermore, there wasn't much depth in that year's rookie QB class with Peyton Manning and Ryan Leaf the two standouts expected to go right away and no one else behind them (the 3rd QB taken that year was Charlie Batch at the bottom of the 2nd round).

Having released Collins, the team needed a backup QB. The backup the year before had been the 27 year old Alex Van Pelt and the team looked for a veteran presence (Kelly had not been willing to give up his starting job to mentor a young Collins so a veteran was lacking at the QB position) and found that they could get that just across the border with CFL QB, Flutie. (Consider Buffalo's proximity to Canada and the large number of Canadian Bills fans).

There was no clamor for Doug Flutie among Bills management. It just made sense to get a veteran to backup a young signal caller whom you just gave up a 1st rounder for.

Now, Rob Johnson actually played very well statistically but he did get off to a 1-3 start, with the Bills losing some very close games (16-14 to the Chargers [Flutie actually played most of this game], 13-7 to Marino's Dolphins, 34-33 to the Rams [Two 4th quarter TDs by the Rams in the comeback win]; his win came in a duel with Steve Young's 49ers). Johnson was not terrible and losses were all so close and not really his fault. In fact, in the Rams loss, Johnson had thrown 3 TDs to give the Bills a comfortable 28-10 lead late in the 3rd quarter before the defense collapsed to what would have been a very lackluster Rams offense.

Johnson got injured the next game and Flutie came in and, as I'm sure Ben would tell you, played well, leading the Bills to finish off the year 10-6 and make the playoffs.

Now, that needs to be looked at a little deeper... these are the teams Flutie played against and their end-of-season records:

Wins:
2 wins against Colts (3-13)
Jaguars (11-5)
Panthers (4-12)
Dolphins (10-6)
Patriots (9-7)
Bengals (3-13)
Raiders (8-8)

5 out of 8 wins were against .500 or worse teams.

Losses:
2 losses to the Jets (12-4)
Patriots (9-7)

For the most part, Flutie's Bills beat who they were supposed to beat and lost two games to the Jets who would go on to a 12-4 record.

The other thing to keep in mind is that this Bills team was more stacked then you think, coupling aging veterans with explosive young talent. A backfield with Thurman Thomas and Antowain Smith, Eric Moulds and Andre Reed at receiver. Bruce Smith was coming off a 14 sack season and would have 10 sacks this year. The defense would finish the year with a very impressive 43 sacks and a solid 18 INTs. In fact, the 1998 Bills were one of the best defenses of the year, ranking 6th in yards allowed.

And lest you scoff at Antowain Smith and an old Thurman Thomas, the 1998 Bills were the #3 team in the league running the ball with a total of 2,161 rushing yards between the backs.

Doug Flutie did exactly what a veteran QB is expected to do. Nothing more.

Consider Wade Phillips' play-calling: that year, the Bills were ranked 28th (remember, this is when there were only 30 teams) in number of pass attempts with 461 pass attempts yet were #1 in rushing attempts with 531 rushing attempts. I can't re-iterate that enough... 3rd FEWEST pass attempts, 1st in rushing attempts.

This was nothing more than a run-first team with a defense adept at getting to the QB, generating turnovers, and very stingy with the yards. Sounds to me like Doug Flutie is more like Trent Dilfer without the Super Bowl ring than anything else.

[Al B. Sure!]

That's unfortunately not what his stats say. If you adjust 10 starts over 16 starts you get yardage numbers in excess of everyone else that year. Plus third overall in TD in the entire NFL. Those are all-pro numbers.

That's not what the stats say, fool:

Consider Wade Phillips' play-calling: that year (1998), the Bills were ranked 28th (remember, this is when there were only 30 teams) in number of pass attempts with 461 pass attempts yet were #1 in rushing attempts with 531 rushing attempts. I can't re-iterate that enough... 3rd FEWEST pass attempts, 1st in rushing attempts.

[Ben Kenobi]

Now, Rob Johnson actually played very well statistically but he did get off to a 1-3 start, with the Bills losing some very close games (16-14 to the Chargers [Flutie actually played most of this game], 13-7 to Marino's Dolphins, 34-33 to the Rams [Two 4th quarter TDs by the Rams in the comeback win]; his win came in a duel with Steve Young's 49ers). Johnson was not terrible and losses were all so close and not really his fault

He was the sack machine. Highest sack to dropback ratio in the history of the modern NFL.

[Al B. Sure!]

You're also an idiot, Ben, because you're ignoring that Doug Flutie played in (and ACCUMULATED STATS!!!) games he did not start!

You can't just take his numbers divide by 10 starts and multiply by 16!

158 yards passing versus San Diego; was not a start
213 yards passing versus Indianapolis; was not a start.

Over a full season, he would have had 3774 yards assuming his starting averages held

[Ben Kenobi]

Consider Wade Phillips' play-calling: that year (1998), the Bills were ranked 28th (remember, this is when there were only 30 teams) in number of pass attempts with 461 pass attempts yet were #1 in rushing attempts with 531 rushing attempts. I can't re-iterate that enough... 3rd FEWEST pass attempts, 1st in rushing attempts.

The fact that if Flutie had played for the entire season and would have had the rate numbers higher than everyone speaks the following.

1, Flutie had a very high YPA.
2, Flutie was very productive from both YPA and TD passes that season.

Wade Phillips didn't have to call as many passes because Flutie threw it deep.

[Ben Kenobi]

you're ignoring that Doug Flutie played in games he did not start!

You're ignoring them as well. Bills with Flutie starting were 7-3. Bills with Johnson were 1-3. Maybe they still would have made the playoffs but the fact is that they didn't because Rob Johnson got sacked and injured.

This was a common issue for the sack reception master. Nobody got sacked like Rob Johnson.

Flutie's numbers averaged about 220 and 2 tds/start. These are not Trent Green numbers.

[Ben Kenobi]

Over a full season, he would have had 3774 yards assuming his starting averages held

Which would rank him?

Hrrm, third overall in the NFL. Behind Favre and Young. All Pro numbers.

[-Jrabbit]

The first two complaints are generally the same. One, he was too small. Two, he was a scab. Where does the actual talent evaluation come in?

Way to ingore the root cause of his problems -- signing with the USFL out of college. Flutie refused to bide time on the bench (which was what most QBs, even high first-rounders, had to do in that era), and MADE THE CHOICE to turn up his nose at the NFL out of the gate. He was a prima donna and a drama queen from the get-go.

To blame "the NFL" for Doug Flutie's (you should pardon the term) shortcomings is disingenuous at best, as he refused to commit to the league, twice. And during his early career time in Chicago and New England (not to mention the USFL), he did very little to distinguish himself.

Rarely have I seen any athlete piss off Chicago teammates, management and fandom as quickly and irretrievably as did Doug Flutie. There was much rejoicing when he was traded to New England.

The only treatment of Doug Flutie that seems blatantly unfair to me was the Bills in 98-99, when he was playing well but was benched for the playoffs in favor of the starter, Rob Johnson (returning from injury) on direct order of the owner, Ralph Wilson. (Wade Phillips is usually blamed for this.)

[Al B. Sure!]

Wade Phillips didn't have to call as many passes because Flutie threw it deep.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/1998/passing.htm

Sort by Yards Per Completion. Doug Flutie's 13.4 is kind of high (it had better be! He was throwing to Eric Moulds and Andre Reed!) but was bested by Chris Chandler, Randall Cunningham, and Drew Bledsoe and equal to John Elway.