Fantasy Football Discussion Thread

[Donegeal]

This isn't about you. This is about our Apolyton scoring and the intent to represent QB's performances. It is stupid for the first QB in my example to have more fantasy points than the second one when the second one clearly outplayed the first.

You are right. This isn't about me. It's about how weak you're argument was.

[Al B. Sure!]

You are right. This isn't about me. It's about how weak you're argument was.

You're not even in our league so hush.

I want to hear what people who actually play in our league have to think.

[-Jrabbit]

It has a lot more to do with total attempts and completions. You want a QB from a pass-oriented offense, which is why guys like Roethlisberger and Ryan - both excellent QBs - are only marginal starters in FF. Why is that so hard to grasp?

Using your own extreme example, wouldn't you prefer a RB with 3x the number of touches, despite inferior yd/carry?

The fact is, QBs get significant points in garbage time when their team behind, just as RBs get significant extra touches when leading. This situation is game-driven in RL and has absolutely no relevance to fantasy football.

[Al B. Sure!]

It has a lot more to do with total attempts and completions. You want a QB from a pass-oriented offense, which is why guys like Roethlisberger and Ryan - both excellent QBs - are only marginal starters in FF. Why is that so hard to grasp?

Using your own extreme example, wouldn't you prefer a RB with 3x the number of touches, despite inferior yd/carry?

The fact is, QBs get significant points in garbage time when their team behind, just as RBs get significant extra touches when leading. This situation is game-driven in RL and has absolutely no relevance to fantasy football.

What you're missing is that the pass-oriented QB's are doubly rewarded... not only are they more likely to get big yardage numbers (just by default of them throwing more; note, they could throw a lot of short passes and get a respectable total just off of the fact that they keep throwing [Orton] whereas a Big Ben or a McNabb doesn't throw as much but when they do throw, the pass goes far) which helps their fantasy stock but their sheer number of completions gives the additional points as well.

They're doubling up on fantasy points for essentially the same thing.


As for RB's, we don't give points for rush attempts so that's not relevant. Maybe you're not understanding, Jrabbit.

The fact is, a QB with a higher completion % and higher Y/A played better. I think that should probably be relevant in fantasy and this QB should be rewarded with more fantasy points than a QB who just throws and throws... at the very least, they should be about even in value.

Instead, we have a situation where the QB who throws a lot gets more fantasy points than the efficient QB even if the two QB's throw for the same amount of yards and TD's. It's the EXACT OPPOSITE of what is represented on the field. WORSE performances can fetch more fantasy points!

All else being equal, two QB's with the same yardage and TD numbers should have around the same fantasy points. If anything, the difference should be in who played better... who had the higher completion % or higher Y/A. Instead, the difference is who threw the most passes? And, as Big Ben vs. Brees showed, throwing more passes can fetch 30% more fantasy points!

That's incredibly broken. I can't believe I just realized this now.

[Donegeal]

You're not even in our league so hush.

I want to hear what people who actually play in our league have to think.

This is a FF discussion thread, not exclusive to any one league. You want to make an exclusive thread for your league, you go right ahead (but it might get closed as being a club thread).

[Al B. Sure!]

This is a FF discussion thread, not exclusive to any one league. You want to make an exclusive thread for your league, you go right ahead (but it might get closed as being a club thread).

What are you talking about? We already have a IDP and a D/ST league threads as is. The reason why this is relevant here is that it gets more traffic and because what I'm saying applies to both leagues since both leagues use the same scoring system for QB's. This is something for everyone to think about for next year, regardless of what league they are in.

And club threads? Getting closed? I'm lost.

[Donegeal]

That's just it... there is more traffic here. Anyone can post, so if you don't want to hear what I have to say, then just don't read it.

[-Jrabbit]

Let's look at the flip side: Yesterday, Brees had basically twice as many completions as Roethlisberger, and the same number of TDs. Yet Big Ben, being efficient, scored just as well. I think it shows the scoring system to be pretty fair.

As for RB's, we don't give points for rush attempts so that's not relevant. Maybe you're not understanding, Jrabbit.

Not understanding??? Answer this: Do you want the RB who will get 24 touches, or the guy who gets the ball 8 times? Totally relevant. Similarly, I want the QB who chucks it 50 times, not 20. Look, I'm not the kind of poster who calls people retards, but you sorely tempt me.

All I'm seeing is a lot of whining about qty of completions vs QB efficiency. If you're going there, why not break down RBs to ypc instead of total yards? WRs rewarded more for short 3rd-down conversions than meaningless 18-yarders on 3rd-and-20?

You're trying to assign value that is not available in a stat-based system. This is not the NFL.

I draft QBs who throw a lot, WRs who are targeted a lot, and RBs who catch passes. I like IDP defenders who are on the field a lot. In DST, a team that gives up a lot of points gets a lot of extra return yardage. Is that fair? Combining defense and special teams is, in fact, inherently stupid (esp since there is no reward for punting net avg/I20, or touchbacks). But I don't see you complaining about that.

This is all based on DOING WELL IN FANTASY FOOTBALL, not "who's the better player in real life."

[MRT144]

It has a lot more to do with total attempts and completions. You want a QB from a pass-oriented offense, which is why guys like Roethlisberger and Ryan - both excellent QBs - are only marginal starters in FF. Why is that so hard to grasp?

Using your own extreme example, wouldn't you prefer a RB with 3x the number of touches, despite inferior yd/carry?

The fact is, QBs get significant points in garbage time when their team behind, just as RBs get significant extra touches when leading. This situation is game-driven in RL and has absolutely no relevance to fantasy football.

It makes me want to make a trade for Ryan Fitzpatrick.

[Ben Kenobi]

All I did was look for a QB that had about the same points as Brees (Big Ben) and compared them and Big Ben waaaay outplayed Brees to the point where it wasn't even close

What's your assessment of Tolbert vs Ray Rice.

[Tuberski]

I don't know what the D/ST league settings are, but IDP has nerfed the QBs a bit by subtracting (-0.5) per incompletion and the same (-0.5) per sack. That's how Cutler was able to achieve a negative score vs. the Giants.

Yet Brees' 4 INT don't seem to matter much.

ACK!

[-Jrabbit]

They cost him 12 points (-3 ea). I'd say it mattered significantly.

I find it hilarious that there are no penalties for INTs in Albert's money league, but he doesn't seem to have a problem with that.

FYI, Yahoo's default QB setting is 4pts/TD and -1pt/INT.

[Al B. Sure!]

Jrabbit, I think that the no penalty for INTs is stupid but these guys have been playing this way for well over a decade so not much I can say to change their minds.

Jrabbit, I can't believe you would threaten to call me retarded. The point is that had Brees not thrown all those picks, he would have had a SIGNIFICANTLY better day than Big Ben (30% more fantasy points, in fact! 40+ versus ~30), even though they threw the same number of TDs and Brees had 350 yards to Ben's 300.

I'm not talking about real life vs. fantasy, even though the point of fantasy is to still get some semblance of good players in real life being good in fantasy... I'm talking about the fact that sheer number of completions carries way to much weight.

Did you check my example of the two hypothetical QB's?

You can even set up a scenario where a QB throws for MORE yardage, HIGHER completion %, MORE TD'S, higher Y/A, and still scores less points simply because he doesn't throw as much.

40/60 (66%) for 250 yards (4.2 Y/A) and 3 TDs... 91.6 Rating... 15 + 12.5 + 18 = 45.5
15/20 (75%) for 260 yards (13 Y/A) and 4 TDs... 156.25 Rating... 6.25 + 13 + 24 = 43.25

Do you really like it that this happens! Even though QB B threw for MORE YARDS, MORE TD'S, and was all-around better, he has less fantasy points? That doesn't bother you? And while that specific example is extreme, it's clearly happening if I found similar incongruities so easily with Big Ben vs. Brees. I'm sure if I looked deeper, I could find many more cases of this problem. Completions have too much weight.

And consider, that it's double-rewarding pass-first QB's... yes, you draft guys who throw and guys who get carries but why? Because the more they throw and the more they carry the ball, the more yardage you can expect they'll get at the end of the day and the more opportunity for TD's, right?

My question is why is that not sufficient to value these guys? Why do you got to add more bonus points to them by giving them points for completions? You're taking the fact that pass-first QB's are more likely to rack up the numbers and therefore have high fantasy value as is, then magnifying their fantasy value by ALSO giving them points literally to just throw the ball.

There's like 20 of us between the two leagues... I really doubt I'm the only one that this bothers. I think I'm just the only one who has really thought about it so far.

[MRT144]

your hypothetical is stupid though. Who the **** throws 40 passes for 250 yards?

[Al B. Sure!]

your hypothetical is stupid though. Who the **** throws 40 passes for 250 yards?

My hypothetical is an example to show the power of completions.

However, if you must know...

In 2001, Carolina Panthers QB Chris Weinke went 36 of 63 for 223 yards... a 22.4 point fantasy day by our scoring.

A QB with a more realistic (and much better day) 15/25 for 223 yards would have only racked up 16.15 fantasty points.

That really doesn't bother anyone?