MLB - 2010 Spring Training!

[Imran Siddiqui]

Standards tougher than being judged with respect to your peers?! WTF?!

If you are in the 'steroids era' and are still 38% better than the average player, that's even more impressive if he wasn't on them.

And speaking of one tool players, why is Tony Gwynn in the Hall then?

[Ben Kenobi]

Can't be entirely sure of that.

Oh he's always been about the same size!

He's also got a good shot of getting 500 HRs and 500 Doubles, which is not something "one tool" players achieve.

[Imran Siddiqui]

To be honest Ben, I think Delgado may be done. I'd love to be wrong, but his injury history lately and his age don't bode well. I wish he does hit 500 HRs, so the whiners can have their "milestone".

As for being the same size, so was Ortiz and Ramirez. That doesn't necessarily mean anything.

[Flatlander Fox]

Tony Gywnn was a great hitter for a long time. He played great defense and had good speed until he turned into a pear shaped placeholder in RF.

I don't like Delgado's chances either, he belongs in the Hall of Very Good, but not in Cooperstown.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Tigers win! 5-3 over the White Sox as Ryan Raburn comes up HUGE, with 2 HRs and Verlander pitches a pretty good game.

Twins win 13 to 4 with Kubel having a pair of HRs.

One game playoff on Tuesday!

[Imran Siddiqui]

Tony Gywnn was a great hitter for a long time. He played great defense and had good speed until he turned into a pear shaped placeholder in RF.

False. He played average defense. His range factor is around the average RF. And he had decent speed, but only 70% successful, meaning he didn't add any runs to his teams by his stealing.

And he was a great singles hitter. He didn't walk much and didn't hit for power.

[-Jrabbit]

Surely you're not seriously suggesting that Tony Gwynn doesn't belong in the HOF.

As for Delgado, it's just my opinion. To me, a slow 1B-DH needs to be exceptional to get in, especially considering the inflated stats of the era. OPS+ is a nice data point, but it's certainly no end-all. (Well, maybe for you, Imran. But not for me.)

[Imran Siddiqui]

I'm suggesting that if Gwynn is in, then Delgado deserves to go. I'm not saying that Gwynn is like Kirby Puckett (who definitely didn't deserve entry), but Gwynn has his limitations as does Delgado. Gwynn was a very good singles hitting RF with some speed early on in his career who played 2,440 games. Delgado was a very good power hitting 1B who played 2,035 games. Both deserve entry.

especially considering the inflated stats of the era. OPS+ is a nice data point, but it's certainly no end-all

I think that as you continue to tout "inflated stats of the era" that you really, really don't understand what OPS+ is. Delgado is 38% better than the average of the "inflated stats of the era". That's the point of OPS+

[Imran Siddiqui]

Another thing to think of, Gary Sheffield is undoubtedly going to the Hall of Fame (maybe not on 1st ballot, but he's going). He's played 500 more games than Delgado and his OPS+ if 140 (not much higher than Delgado), but he's a definitely because he just barely crossed 500 HRs (and hasn't been accused of steroids). I don't think anyone has seriously said Sheffield won't go (shouldn't is another argument).

So should Delgado just lumber along for 27 more HRs (if he wants to limp around for 2-3 seasons he can get it) just to punch his ticket?

[OzzyKP]

Delgado is 38% better than the average of the "inflated stats of the era".

How do Puckett and Gwynn compare on this same stat?

[Imran Siddiqui]

How do Puckett and Gwynn compare on this same stat?

Gwynn has an OPS+ of 132 (and like I said, no problems with Gwynn in the Hall)

And Puckett has an OPS+ of 124

[-Jrabbit]

Imran, you seem incapable of accepting that it is entirely possible to understand what OPS+ means and still deny Delgado my theoretical HOF vote. Limping in with a few more HRs won't do it for me either; that's not my metric.

The whole point of the HOF is to reward the absolute best baseball players with enshrinement. I don't happen to put Carlos Delgado in that class.

If it was all about OPS+, we wouldn't need a vote, now would we? We could just ask the stat fiends to give us their list and be done with it. But that's not how it works. It is, amazingly enough, a matter of opinion. The fact that you think I'm wrong, and believe you can "prove" it, is absolutely irrelevant.

I know this frustrates you. Tant pis.

[Imran Siddiqui]

My problem is that you continue to apparently indicate that you don't understand what OPS+ is. By keep saying 'inflated stats', you show that you don't know that OPS+ adjusts for that.

The whole point of the HOF is to reward the absolute best baseball players with enshrinement

That must be why Phil Rizzuto is in there


And if its merely just opinion, I'm guess you'll have no problem if I say I want, oh, Mookie Wilson in there because I liked him for what he did in the 1986 World Series?

[snoopy369]

If you don't mind us mocking you, go right ahead

[snoopy369]

With Delgado, I think he'll probably make it in, and I think he probably should. His relatively weak play with the Mets has somewhat weakened the memories of the really, really, really good player he was with the 'Jays. He was one of the best hitters in the league during the late 1990s-early 2000s. From 1998 to 2003, he was arguably THE best hitter over the entire span. Consistently 30+ HR, .900+ OPS. Even once he joined the Mets, he was still well above average; 38 home runs in two of three healthy seasons, and in those two seasons, around .900 OPS both years (one over, one under). When your down year is 24 HRs, .780 OPS, I'll take that.

The big factor weighing against him: award recognition. He has no MVP awards, no World Series rings, and only played in two all star games. He finished in the top 10 in the MVP voting four times, but only received a total of five first-place votes (all in 2003, when he finished second to A-Rod). It amazes me that he only received two all-star nods (one as starter, one as a reserve), particularly in 1998 and 1999; he was unfortunately playing along with Jason Giambi, Frank Thomas, Fred McGriff, Jim Thome, Rafael Palmeiro, and a host of other very good first basemen during that era [steroids or no; and I don't make a comment on Delgado's use or non-use. I think he's about an even chance to have used and/or not used.]

I think you can make an argument that recognition during the playing career is important, or perhaps even necessary, for HoF membership. Delgado was never considered the best player in the league by the award voters, and wasn't even selected to very many all star games. I find that somewhat odd, but nonetheless, the fans, managers, players, and media of his era did not consider him to be one of the best players in the league while he played; and I think that will make it a challenge for the HoF to induct him.

I still think they will, mind you; he was very good for an extended period of time. But I don't consider it absurd to imagine that he won't be voted in.