Pope: Catholics should ask gay people for forgiveness

[Ben Kenobi]

Oh, I don't think that the cattholic church should accept civil marriages as equivalentto theirs.
After all, the catholic marriage isn a religious ceremony geared towards the faith in a specific god (i.e. YHWH)
I guess the catholic church also wouldn't see a hindu or buddhist marriage as equivalent to their own

No, they would not. And this is an important point to make. There's a difference between actions that the Church considers to be objectively disordered (ie, sodomy, etc), and actions that do not comply with clerical law. Homosexual marriage is the former, whereas Hindu and Buddhist marriages are the latter. Both are wrong but for different reasons.

I am sure it would be sufficient if the church and its members accept that the civil marriage (justr like a hindu or buddhist marriage is a marriage distinct of their own ... and that therefore the civil authorities with regards to the civil marriage have every freedom to deviate from the rules that the catholics see as binbding for their own form of marriage

Indeed, but the point I'm trying to make is that the Church makes a distinction between Hindu and Buddhist marriages - as an ordered action which, while it doesn't conform with Catholic principles, can still be considered a blessing in and of itself - and between objectively disordered actions. That's the distinction I'm trying to make here. It might seem like nitpicking, but it is not.

So I guess you would also be against marriages by body modification fans (like people with piercings or split tongues).

Do either impair the function of the body or interfere with the union of husband or wife?

What about people with cosmetic surgeries (like liposuctions, breast enlargements or labiaplasty?
Would they get your O.K. to marry?

What about them? Those aren't mutilation.

And what about persons who are circumcised?

Saint Paul said that's ok.

[Giancarlo]

Ben is a transphobic piece of crap that subscribes to gender norms and Victorian era logic. I say **** gender labels. I don't live by gender norms. Never. I am sick of living to the standards of some christian fanatic bigot like Ben.

[Ming]

Yeah... The Catholic Church isn't trying to change the law about divorces... which is a sin
They aren't trying to make a law that premarital should be illegal... which is a sin

They are just picking on gays... They are trying to force their concept of marriage down people's throats who aren't even Catholic.
They don't care that most people don't consider it a sin... they just want their version of sin for ALL PEOPLE.

Yet another classic example that religious freedom means only freedom to Catholics.

[giblets]

Ben is a transphobic piece of crap that subscribes to gender norms and Victorian era logic. I say **** gender labels. I don't live by gender norms. Never. I am sick of living to the standards of some christian fanatic bigot like Ben.

Ben wasn't even talking about transgender people until you brought it up.

[Ben Kenobi]

It is a good option for those ready for it.

And presumably those who commit suicide (about 20 percent of them, 'were not ready'?

I am saying your study is statistically irrelevant and bull****. It doesn't include a large enough sample.

65 of 325 is sufficiently large enough to demonstrate that the increase in the suicide rate is statistically significant.

[Giancarlo]

Yeah... The Catholic Church isn't trying to change the law about divorces... which is a sin
They aren't trying to make a law that premarital should be illegal... which is a sin

They are just picking on gays... They are trying to force their concept of marriage down people's throats who aren't even Catholic.
They don't care that most people don't consider it a sin... they just want their version of sin for ALL PEOPLE.

Yet another classic example that religious freedom means only freedom to Catholics.

They pick on anyone who is slightly different. If someone doesn't live to their norms on gender, they shouldn't be part of society. LGBT people will always be outcasts from the viewpoint of the Catholic church. That is why they need to be put into irrelevance.

[Ben Kenobi]

Ben wasn't even talking about transgender people until you brought it up.

Indeed. I don't think I've said much about them at all in all my time on this site. I'm not sure how Gian concludes that I am 'bigoted' when I don't talk about them at all.

[Giancarlo]

And presumably those who commit suicide (about 20 percent of them, 'were not ready'?



65 of 325 is sufficiently large enough to demonstrate that the increase in the suicide rate is statistically significant.

You cannot conclude anything based on one poorly done study, Ben. We been through this enough. You don't know anything. Again, society drives people to suicide.

You are an idiot and you know nothing about LGBT people. So **** off.

[Giancarlo]

Ben wasn't even talking about transgender people until you brought it up.

I was seeing what he thought and my assumptions were correct. He is a stupid bigot the same with trans people and with gay people.

[Giancarlo]

Indeed. I don't think I've said much about them at all in all my time on this site. I'm not sure how Gian concludes that I am 'bigoted' when I don't talk about them at all.

I concluded you are bigoted simply based on what you have said about my community as a whole. And your recent thoughts show your bias and hate.

This subject is personal to me and I know more about my community than you ever will. Fundamentalist idiot. Just like guy whose house was flooded. Take a ****ing hint!

[Ben Kenobi]

Yeah... The Catholic Church isn't trying to change the law about divorces... which is a sin
They aren't trying to make a law that premarital should be illegal... which is a sin

They are just picking on gays... They are trying to force their concept of marriage down people's throats who aren't even Catholic.
They don't care that most people don't consider it a sin... they just want their version of sin for ALL PEOPLE.

The argument is that 3 is a legitimate state interest, while one and two are not. Did Ming forget that I'm one of the few people that actually make the distinction between the two on secular grounds?

Yet another classic example that religious freedom means only freedom to Catholics.

If that were so the Catholic church would ban marriages not done by priests.

[Giancarlo]

The argument is that 3 is a legitimate state interest, while one and two are not. Did Ming forget that I'm one of the few people that actually make the distinction between the two on secular grounds?



If that were so the Catholic church would ban marriages not done by priests.

You don't make conclusions on secular grounds. You are too brainwashed to do so.

[Ben Kenobi]

You cannot conclude anything based on one poorly done study, Ben

Actually, we can conclude that there is a significant elevated risk of suicide, somewhere between 15-25x, for people getting sex changes.

[Ben Kenobi]

You don't make conclusions on secular grounds. You are too brainwashed to do so.

The secular argument is that the state has an interest in regularizing marriage in order to protect wives and paternity. This isn't a new argument.

Specifically with homosexual marriage - the argument is that things of the same substance have the same outcome. A black man and a white woman can have children with each other, which is a rationale for equality between men and women and between different races.

If they could not have children with each other, this would be an argument from biology that there were substantial (differences in the substance) between the two.

WRT to homosexuality, we do not see that men with other men can have children. Ergo, there is a substantial difference between this union and the union of a man and a woman.

From the point of view of the state, insofar as the two are different, and the state has an interest in unions that can produce children, we arrive at the conclusion that the state has an interest in preserving traditional marriage.

Not a single appeal to religion in there.

[Giancarlo]

Actually, we can conclude that there is a significant elevated risk of suicide, somewhere between 15-25x, for people getting sex changes.

No you can't. I just explained why. You are making a false correlation and the study was poorly done based on antiquated standards.