was corbyn really against the remain?

[Bereta_Eder]

Even if the UK stays within the EU (resling said it is unlikely that it would leave) it's better that corbyn is at the helm.

[C0ckney]

Also a silly question: doesn't he have at least one wide circulation paper that's on his side?
(the guardian?)

If he hasn't, he should buy one.

no. the guardian has been pretty much dead set against him from when he entered the leadership race. the mirror has been supportive and the independent has given him a fairer hearing than one might expect, but apart from that it's hostility all the way.

a good, if somewhat out of date, article on the subject can be found here.

[Buster Crabbe's Uncle]

Well, uncharacteristically for OT, the slap-fights on this page are amusing me. Keep up the funny, d00dz.

[Dauphin]

one can analyse a poll any way one chooses.

ultimately, they don't matter; elections matter. as i said, by any reckoning based on results not feelings, corbyn has done well. he has done very well when one considers that he has also had to fight with one hand tied behind his back, with a large contingent of MPs who refuse to accept the will of the membership, and the media, including most of the nominally left-wing papers, that has run a non-stop campaign against him from day one.

The argument can be made that the party (or the local level MPs/councillors) is still able to get results despite having one hand behind its back due to a dysfunctional leader.

[C0ckney]

it could, i suppose. how would you make such an argument?

[Dauphin]

You have no idea how well the party would do if Corbyn wasn't there. We may see soon enough though.

[kentonio]

one can analyse a poll any way one chooses.

No, one can't. The tories are self-destructing this week faster than any party in UK history, and Labour have completely failed to capitalize. It doesn't matter how you want to spin that, that's the simple truth coming out from the polls.

ultimately, they don't matter; elections matter. as i said, by any reckoning based on results not feelings, corbyn has done well. he has done very well when one considers that he has also had to fight with one hand tied behind his back, with a large contingent of MPs who refuse to accept the will of the membership, and the media, including most of the nominally left-wing papers, that has run a non-stop campaign against him from day one.

Of course they bloody matter! They're telling you how the people of the country are currently thinking, and if its bad now then how exactly is it going to get better in the few short months before a likely election? This isn't a socialism purity test or a personality contest, its about who will decide the future of the country.

If the entire Labour establishment don't have any respect for the man, then he should **** off and find a party that does. But instead no, we'll get months of in-fighting and 'fight for the soul of the party' bull****, because in Corbyn-Land the ideology matters more than actually getting elected and being able to do anything about it. Just as long as he stands true to his principles, because obviously those are a great way to feed and house young kids and make sure people have jobs.

[giblets]

They should keep Corbyn, jsut to piss off conservatives like kentonio.

[Aeson]

voters have a choice between trump and clinton. they can vote third party of course, but they'll get one of those two come what may.

Trump is there only because Trump supporters chose him out of a large field. Hillary is there because her supporters chose her over Bernie and a couple others. And the D and R choice is because D votes D and R votes R. No one is forced to be D or R, they choose to be. If so many didn't choose to be, then there would be more options.

Everyone is responsible for their own vote. And anyone who supports a fascist with that vote is to blame for supporting fascists. You want to apologize for fascist supporters rather than accept that obvious reality.

let's put it this way: if i gave you a binary choice between eating **** and drinking piss, i expect that you would choose the latter (feel free to correct me if i'm wrong).

I wouldn't do either. I have never voted for President. Everyone has a choice as to who they support and who they don't support. Your failed mindset where you feel you have to support **** or piss is precisely why **** and piss are the options on your menu.

In any case, "expect" is not mutually exclusive with "blame" as you keep trying to claim. I expect you will continue your inane quest to apologize for fascists... and I blame you for choosing to do so.

[Bereta_Eder]

There is a coleration between neoliberalism and far right.
There are scapegoats and they are very convienient.

It is the duty of the left wing to make that abudantly clear.

No the people are not flawless nor beyond reproach.
But it is the duty of those who see beyond their noses to point that out, consistently, always, relentlessly.

[Aeson]

There is a much stronger correlation between far right (or similar) and humans existing. There has always been xenophobia and racism. For most of human history they were firmly in control.

Democracy and free markets in general aren't perfect, but they've done a much better job than what came before them. Those people who can't get over their hate, jealousy, and/or fear are a monkey wrench in the system. They drive the divisive and destructive movements that undermine the ability of the working class (worldwide) from uniting for the benefit of all workers. The owner class is to blame for plenty as well, and often pits the workers against each other to get them to support harming their own interests individually and as a class.

[Bereta_Eder]

Wait.
You mean that the purposfully dismantling of the public and social provisions fill the working class (and not only) with hate?

Well of course it does. It's only human

[Bereta_Eder]

But it is much easier to blame the immigrant who has absolutely zero power than the government who, trust me, has huge power. Not unlimited and with a thousand doublecheks but infintely more than the immigrant.

The immigrant is not the reason the average person can't find a slot at the emergency room. That's the government.

[C0ckney]

You have no idea how well the party would do if Corbyn wasn't there. We may see soon enough though.

that's not a very convincing way to back up post 79, and it suggests to me that you don't believe it yourself.

[C0ckney]

No, one can't. The tories are self-destructing this week faster than any party in UK history, and Labour have completely failed to capitalize. It doesn't matter how you want to spin that, that's the simple truth coming out from the polls.



Of course they bloody matter! They're telling you how the people of the country are currently thinking, and if its bad now then how exactly is it going to get better in the few short months before a likely election? This isn't a socialism purity test or a personality contest, its about who will decide the future of the country.

If the entire Labour establishment don't have any respect for the man, then he should **** off and find a party that does. But instead no, we'll get months of in-fighting and 'fight for the soul of the party' bull****, because in Corbyn-Land the ideology matters more than actually getting elected and being able to do anything about it. Just as long as he stands true to his principles, because obviously those are a great way to feed and house young kids and make sure people have jobs.

to be honest, ken, i've already answered all that in previous posts, especially in posts 16, 28 and 36. if you want to come back on any of that, then feel free, but there isn't much point in us just repeating the same things over and over.