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Those who hate foreigners and immigrants are wrong to do so, and those who support pols which promote such hate are wrong to do so.
I don't understand why people are talking about this in the context of this referendum. Leave voters haven't been voting for hatred against foreigners and immigrants, but for democratic accountability.
I do hope I have missed the point of what people are talking about here.
Aeson, if you could never be bothered to vote in your entire life then you are part of the problem. Voting is our one chance, our only chance, to actually influence events even if it seems meaningless. If you can't be bothered to do even that then your opinion simply does not matter.
No, how you live your life is a much bigger chance to affect things.
I don't understand why people are talking about this in the context of this referendum. Leave voters haven't been voting for hatred against foreigners and immigrants, but for democratic accountability.
I do hope I have missed the point of what people are talking about here.
cockney brought up fascists and Trump, so that's what I was addressing. I haven't addressed the Brexit at all outside it's immediate effect on exchange rates.
It does seem at least some of the leave voters were voting based on hatred (or distrust/fear) of foreigners and immigrants though. I don't know how prevalent it was.
Trump is there only because Trump supporters chose him out of a large field. Hillary is there because her supporters chose her over Bernie and a couple others. And the D and R choice is because D votes D and R votes R. No one is forced to be D or R, they choose to be. If so many didn't choose to be, then there would be more options.
I won't be voting for D or R, that's for damn sure. I'll vote and be on the losing side but I won't have my name attached to either piece of ****. Not that anyone gives a damn but that's what I have to live with it.
Which side are we on? We're on the side of the demons, Chief. We are evil men in the gardens of paradise, sent by the forces of death to spread devastation and destruction wherever we go. I'm surprised you didn't know that. --Saul Tigh
I don't understand why people are talking about this in the context of this referendum. Leave voters haven't been voting for hatred against foreigners and immigrants, but for democratic accountability.
I do hope I have missed the point of what people are talking about here.
Given cockney showed strong Leave sympathies if not explicit Leave preference, I don't believe he is saying Leave = Fascism.
UKIP on the other hand have a scary similarity to Fascism, in terms of some of its members and some its policy campaigning.
One day Canada will rule the world, and then we'll all be sorry.
My point is that I don't know if Corbyn is doing a good job or not. You are saying that Corbyn has achieved electoral success despite him being undermined. How do you know it is not the other way around? That MPs and councillors have been elected despite the problem of having Corbyn as leader? You want to use electoral success as the marker, but you need to know what lead to that success.
But then, Labour haven't been successful in elections, at least not compared to historical expectation. You also seem to be arguing that because the press said Labour would lose big, and because they didn't that it was because Corbyn is successful. But given the same fact set, it could just be that Corbyn has had less (negative) impact on the electoral success or failure of Labour. And I don't think that doing better than expectation is necessarily a sign of success - if you predict a team will lose 5-0 and they lose 3-0, is that success when another manager could have won you the game?
That is my point - I don't know what the Corbyn affect is, but I don't believe the factset you are using - electoral results - shows what you claim it to show. I think you are suffering confirmation bias.
OK, that's a lot clearer. of course elections are combined efforts, with local councillors, MPs, the wider party and the leadership all playing their part. the discussion, however, has been about corbyn's leadership and so i was discussing that. we can only go on what we know. we know that labour membership has more than doubled since he took over; we know that he is very popular with the grassroots (he got over 10,000 people out onto the streets at 24 hours notice the other day; most of his detractors would struggle to get anyone besides their immediate family to turn up); we also know the election results since he took over; we know that all these things have happened despite an extremely hostile press and many disloyal MPs who have worked ceaselessly to undermine him.
i don't agree with your bolded assertion, and i would like to know how you reached that conclusion. i am arguing that he has consistently exceeded expectations. exceeding expectations (even though these 'expectations' are, in my view, cynical attempts to undermine corbyn) is a sign of success. if you want to argue, as you imply, that someone else might have done better, then fine, but you need to say who and how; otherwise, it's just an argument from ignorance.
"The Christian way has not been tried and found wanting, it has been found to be hard and left untried" - GK Chesterton.
"The most obvious predicition about the future is that it will be mostly like the past" - Alain de Botton
Dissafection for the EU and domestic elite isn't fascism. I don't understand why you are accusing people of this. :-(
i don't understand how you could have read the post you quoted from and reached that conclusion. but you're not an idiot so i shall clarify.
my point was that fascist parties are on the rise in diverse locations across europe, and that the left must therefore offer people a social democratic alternative, as opposed to a slightly different flavour of neoliberalism, as many formerly social democratic parties, including pre-corbyn labour, are/were doing, in order to prevent those fascist parties capturing the working class vote, which is happening in many places at present.
"The Christian way has not been tried and found wanting, it has been found to be hard and left untried" - GK Chesterton.
"The most obvious predicition about the future is that it will be mostly like the past" - Alain de Botton
Most (main) opposition parties gain council seats when in opposition. Corbyn lost councillors. I am lead to believe his was the first time an opposition party lost seats since 1985.
The few By-election results (looking at swing) have been on a par with what Miliband achieved in his first year in charge.
And I disagree with the assertion that I need to name someone else who can do better, and why. I am arguing that it would be hubris to believe that there is no-one, given Corbyn is not gaining traction with the voting public. Unless you want to argue that Labour are unelectable regardless of who is in charge.
One day Canada will rule the world, and then we'll all be sorry.
but to make that argument you must refer to the context. in 2012, labour was very strong and the lib dems took a real beating due to the coalition; in subsequent years labour built on that. it was only natural that the lib dems would bounce back once out of coalition. labour had essentially reached a high watermark, and for corbyn to have maintained that is an achievement (and again, considering the expectations, etc.). there is obviously a limit to labour support, and expecting them to keep winning seats because they are in opposition can't be justified historically. it certainly didn't happen like that the last time they were in opposition; there were ups and downs.
i have suggested why i think corbyn has done well and explained how he has invigorated the grassroots of the party, who are obviously the bedrock of any future success. if you think that someone could have done better but cannot say who or how, then that tells its own story.
moreover, labour is in trouble - i reject the word unelectable, considering that labour won the 2016 local elections comfortably and has by far and away the most councillors and councils (don't believe the media hype!) - but it is trouble for the reasons that i have set out elsewhere in this thread. these reasons go back almost a generation and are broadly similar to the reasons that other centre-left parties are in trouble across europe. corbyn, or someone else who is prepared to offer social democracy, can resolve these problems; another blarite, or limp centrist, cannot.
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