was corbyn really against the remain?

[Aeson]

Have you heard of proportional responibility?

As kazantsakis said: fight like the whole fate of the world rests on your hands only

I do what I can. In any case There's no excuse for supporting fascists.

About the fascist US policy I hope you are talking about yourself not being able to speak freely

I say what I want to. There aren't many things that you can't say that should be allowed. Anything you say can get people mad at you, but that's perfectly fine. Everyone has a right to get upset or to upset others.

I was speaking mainly about our military endeavors to "protect American interests".

[Bereta_Eder]

I do what I can. In any case There's no excuse for supporting fascists.

I think noone is, really.
You can only try to offer them with a more genuine choice. That's not excusing. That's just leaving open the fact that they just might have been misled.

I say what I want to. There aren't many things that you can't say that should be allowed. Anything you say can get people mad at you, but that's perfectly fine. Everyone has a right to get upset or to upset others.

I was speaking mainly about our military endeavors to "protect American interests".

I understand. Freedom of speech is bigger in the US than in Europe.
However you know that these "military endeavors" were only possible because of the silent consent (sometimes criminal) of your allies

[Aeson]

There is a difference between excusing them and checking wether you have done your outmost to offer them another choice

I have never been forced to support fascists. No one in the US is.

[kentonio]

yeah, it's pretty amusing considering that i'm involved in anti-fascist activities, and went on a march under the anti-fascist banner last month. but it's about the level of intellectual honesty that one can expect from aeson.

I might think you talk a lot of ****e at times, but thank you for standing up and doing that. Genuinely.

[Bereta_Eder]

I have never been forced to support fascists. No one in the US is.

I'm not saying you, or anyone else, was.

I am however questioning the lack of existence of more than two choices.

[Aeson]

I think noone is, really.
You can only try to offer them with a more genuine choice. That's not excusing. That's just leaving open the fact that they just might have been misled.

Saying you don't blame them is excusing their behavior. Even if you don't mean to excuse it, that is what the words mean.

People need to be responsible for their choices. I don't much care for US politics.. or for heartless capitalism. I have responsibility for my inaction in that regard.

I haven't become a fascist. There are choices, no one is being forced to hate immigrants and foreigners.

My choice has been to go to a very poor area of the world and work to improve the economy. If I was charismatic I might try politics in the US, but that's not really in my wheelhouse.

I understand. Freedom of speech is bigger in the US than in Europe.
However you know that these "military endeavors" were only possible because of the silent consent (sometimes criminal) of your allies

Yes, there is plenty of blame to go around.

[Bereta_Eder]

I haven't become a fascist. There are choices, no one is being forced to hate immigrants and foreigners.

My choice has been to go to a very poor area of the world and work to improve the economy. If I was charismatic I might try politics in the US, but that's not really in my wheelhouse.

Well, of course you're not a fascist.

And isn't that what we all do?
Trying to improve things, from our own microcosmos

As long as the heart is in the right place

[Dauphin]

that's not a very convincing way to back up post 79, and it suggests to me that you don't believe it yourself.

My point is that I don't know if Corbyn is doing a good job or not. You are saying that Corbyn has achieved electoral success despite him being undermined. How do you know it is not the other way around? That MPs and councillors have been elected despite the problem of having Corbyn as leader? You want to use electoral success as the marker, but you need to know what lead to that success.

But then, Labour haven't been successful in elections, at least not compared to historical expectation. You also seem to be arguing that because the press said Labour would lose big, and because they didn't that it was because Corbyn is successful. But given the same fact set, it could just be that Corbyn has had less (negative) impact on the electoral success or failure of Labour. And I don't think that doing better than expectation is necessarily a sign of success - if you predict a team will lose 5-0 and they lose 3-0, is that success when another manager could have won you the game?

That is my point - I don't know what the Corbyn affect is, but I don't believe the factset you are using - electoral results - shows what you claim it to show. I think you are suffering confirmation bias.

[Aeson]

Well, of course you're not a fascist.

And isn't that what we all do?
Trying to improve things, from our own microcosmos

As long as the heart is in the right place

If you're supporting a candidate who's saying racist and/or xenophobic things ... even if they're offering you a slightly better economic package ... I would say the heart is not in the right place.

[Bereta_Eder]

People are easily misled.
It is your responsibility to offer them other credible, sensible choices.

You're talking about personal responsibility. Fine.

But instead of blaming the other for voting for a fascist (do it if you want) isn't it more constructive to offer him with a viable alternative?

[Bereta_Eder]

Anyway that's what I think.
Be the change you want to see.

[Dinner]

Aeson, if you could never be bothered to vote in your entire life then you are part of the problem. Voting is our one chance, our only chance, to actually influence events even if it seems meaningless. If you can't be bothered to do even that then your opinion simply does not matter.

[Cort Haus]

people may soon be left with a choice between neoliberealism (in two or more(!) different flavours) and fascism (see the US election for more details), and given the choice, many people, including the working classes who voted for brexit, will choose fascism. and, really, who could blame them?

Dissafection for the EU and domestic elite isn't fascism. I don't understand why you are accusing people of this. :-(

[Aeson]

People are easily misled.
It is your responsibility to offer them other credible, sensible choices.

You're talking about personal responsibility. Fine.

But instead of blaming the other for voting for a fascist (do it if you want) isn't it more constructive to offer him with a viable alternative?

I do not think it is constructive to excuse negative behaviour or discard personal responsibility. Personal responsibility has to be the foundation of any social system. I say this as a firm believer in causality. Yes, there are physical reasons for everything, but no, that doesn't excuse it. To have any hope of peace and prosperity we have to have rules that allow for it, and they have to be enforced somehow. People need to know the rules, that includes what is right and wrong.

We don't have to demonize people who do negative things, and ideally criticism can be done constructively, but we do have to be firm that negative things are negative.

[Bereta_Eder]

I'd agree with you but I think that's a limited intepretation of personal responsibility