was corbyn really against the remain?

[C0ckney]

Even his allies said he showed a lack of leadership in the Referendum campaign, and as the leader of the main opposition party that is unacceptable. As for him staying on, there was a stat earlier about something like 58% of voters who voted Labour in the last election think he should go. The Tory party just set off a landmine under itself, and yet the Labour party is in such complete disarray that the Tories still hold a 4 point lead today.

Think about that for a moment. If there is an election held soon (which it looks increasingly likely there must be) then Labour are going to be annihilated, and the far right of the Tory party handed a 5 year mandate. Does anything about that seem like a good idea?

it's the plotters who have set off the landmine. they could have respected the views of their members and supporters who gave corbyn a huge mandate last year; instead, they have done nothing but carp, moan, undermine and plot, and now they have launched a last desperate attempt to unseat him. let there be a leadership election; corbyn will win it. if the plotters refuse to put someone up to challenge him, then it is they who ought to resign en masse.

[Dauphin]

The is a clear disconnect - are the Labour MPs representing their constituency voters, even if not the party membership? If you got rid of them all and replaced them with Corbyn followers how many seats would be lost?

It's arguably fair to say that these MPs don't represent the party members anymore, but if they split away and formed a new party it could make Corbyn's Labour entirely unelectable.

[Dinner]

https://www.google.com/amp/www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/28/jeremy-corbyn-to-face-formal-leadership-challenge-after-172-labo/amp/?client=ms-android-verizon#

He is facing a no confidence vote.

[C0ckney]

The is a clear disconnect - are the Labour MPs representing their constituency voters, even if not the party membership? If you got rid of them all and replaced them with Corbyn followers how many seats would be lost?

that is a good question. i am not an expert on labour party selection procedures, but it seems to me that both the central and local parties play a role. i know that there have been cases in which the central party has imposed candidates on local parties, to the point that disgruntled members have stood as independents, and even won on a couple of occasions. the membership is considerably to the left of the parliamentary party, and therefore simply changing the rules to give local parties control over selection would lead to a much more left-wing set of MPs.

It's arguably fair to say that these MPs don't represent the party members anymore, but if they split away and formed a new party it could make Corbyn's Labour entirely unelectable.

that's happened before. they could just save themselves the heartache and join the lib dems now.

[C0ckney]

https://www.google.com/amp/www.teleg...droid-verizon#

He is facing a no confidence vote.

doesn't matter. there's a particular procedure for a leadership challenge. what the MPs are doing is trying to get corbyn to resign because they, rightly, fear that their side would lose the subsequent leadership election.

[C0ckney]

also 63% of labour supporters backed remain, only 7% less than supporters of the lib dems, which is the most pro-EU party out there, and a single percentage point more than SNP supporters, 64% of whom voted to stay. in other words, this narrative that corbyn, leading a party that has always had a sizeable eurosceptic element, failed to deliver is total nonsense.

[kentonio]

also 63% of labour supporters backed remain, only 7% less than supporters of the lib dems, which is the most pro-EU party out there, and a single percentage point more than SNP supporters, 64% of whom voted to stay. in other words, this narrative that corbyn, leading a party that has always had a sizeable eurosceptic element, failed to deliver is total nonsense.

So its great that he supported the 'sizeable' 37% of Leave Labour voters, but you have no problems with him totally letting down the 63% of Labour Remain voters? Am I missing something here? His Remain support was lukewarm at the most generous, and downright sabotage at the worst.

[kentonio]

You really think this is the very best time he could be doing this? At the moment when the country is in total chaos, and the vast majority of his own party MP's want him gone? THAT'S the right time to force a brutal internal leadership stuggle?

[C0ckney]

So its great that he supported the 'sizeable' 37% of Leave Labour voters, but you have no problems with him totally letting down the 63% of Labour Remain voters? Am I missing something here? His Remain support was lukewarm at the most generous, and downright sabotage at the worst.

i don't see your point. almost two thirds of labour voters voted remain, which is very similar to the number of SNP and lib dem voters who backed remain. both these parties are historically much more pro-EU than labour. corbyn hasn't let anyone down; he did very well in fact. the narrative being pushed by his opponents and their media allies is total nonsense, as the numbers above prove. don't fall for it!

You really think this is the very best time he could be doing this? At the moment when the country is in total chaos, and the vast majority of his own party MP's want him gone? THAT'S the right time to force a brutal internal leadership stuggle?

doing what? facing a revolt from MPs who clearly have no respect for the wishes of the members? corbyn didn't choose this fight, and why on earth should he step aside to resolve a crisis entirely of his opponents' making?

[giblets]

Do they really think this is a good time to try to oust Corbyn for something that's not his fault? When the country is in turmoil?

x-post

[Dry]

Also isn't it pathetic that the anti - EU sentiments all have to do with far right wing groups?

Not 100% accurate.

Perceived as capitalistic, ultra-liberal, neoliberal, many leftist don't like the EU.
Check the french "Front de Gauche" of Luc Mélanchon. He even claims the "Front National" of Marine Lepen has stolen his position on National Independance (http://www.lejdd.fr/Politique/Pour-J...tionale-748485)
Ask the greek SYRIZA how they feel about Europe. They accepted the EU and IMF conditions only because they needed the money.
Check the position of the spanish PODEMOS movement (keep freedom of movement, ban free trade).

Far left hates EU as much as far right. They don't hate it the same way and not with the same effects.

From my perspective, one of the positive effect of the EU is precisely to prevent extreme (left and right) policies.
EU does not allow national governments to f*ck around with the economy (see free trade, no national subsidies,Stability and Growth Pact...). And is therefor perceived as ultra-liberal by the left.
And the same way, EU has some global social policies and is perceived as too socialist by the right.

Nobody is 100% happy with this, but only moderates can get over it.
It's only natural for demagoges of both sides to be pissed off by not being allowed to implement their own crazy rules.

[kentonio]

i don't see your point. almost two thirds of labour voters voted remain, which is very similar to the number of SNP and lib dem voters who backed remain. both these parties are historically much more pro-EU than labour. corbyn hasn't let anyone down; he did very well in fact. the narrative being pushed by his opponents and their media allies is total nonsense, as the numbers above prove. don't fall for it!

I saw the same thing posted somewhere else and I understand now. People are trying to claim 61% of Labour voters voting remain was an achievement by Corbyn. It wasn't. Labour was hugely pro-EU anyway, his job was to get other people who lean Labour to go along with Remain, not just get people to vote for it who were going to anyway. This is reminding me very strongly of that Vice documentary on him, where he seemed to spend most of his time hanging around people who were already adoring supporters and very little actually convincing new people.

doing what? facing a revolt from MPs who clearly have no respect for the wishes of the members? corbyn didn't choose this fight, and why on earth should he step aside to resolve a crisis entirely of his opponents' making?

I'm no supporter of the anti-Corbyn MP's, I thought it was disgusting that they tried to drive him out just hours after the electorate had chosen him. After last weeks debacle though, its become clear that he isn't a strong leader and he certainly is not going to win the next election while the vast majority of his party are against him. He utterly failed to bring the party together and now its a very pragmatic choice between leaving and giving Labour some electoral chance or staying and guaranteeing a Tory victory. It's not particularly fair, but that's the reality.

[C0ckney]

I saw the same thing posted somewhere else and I understand now. People are trying to claim 61% of Labour voters voting remain was an achievement by Corbyn. It wasn't. Labour was hugely pro-EU anyway, his job was to get other people who lean Labour to go along with Remain, not just get people to vote for it who were going to anyway. This is reminding me very strongly of that Vice documentary on him, where he seemed to spend most of his time hanging around people who were already adoring supporters and very little actually convincing new people.

63% in fact. labour wasn't historically and isn't hugely pro-EU, and certainly not compared to the SNP and lib dems, a similar number of whose voters backed remain. its MPs are, but, as we have seen, the MPs are out of touch with the membership. please explain what would qualify as success in your view, making reference to the historical position and the two far more pro-EU parties whose voters backed remain only marginally more.

presumably, you think that both sturgeon and farron should resign. if not, why not?

also, corbyn is so bad at convincing new people that labour membership doubled since corbyn won. honestly ken, it feels like you're just repeating the false narrative the media has been putting out about him. let's talk about facts rather than feelings.

I'm no supporter of the anti-Corbyn MP's, I thought it was disgusting that they tried to drive him out just hours after the electorate had chosen him. After last weeks debacle though, its become clear that he isn't a strong leader and he certainly is not going to win the next election while the vast majority of his party are against him. He utterly failed to bring the party together and now its a very pragmatic choice between leaving and giving Labour some electoral chance or staying and guaranteeing a Tory victory. It's not particularly fair, but that's the reality.

what rubbish. the crisis is wholly of the labour MPs making, and now they are saying that corbyn has to go because of that crisis! it is they who would not cooperate or reach out. it's not about fairness; it's about respecting the party members who gave corbyn a clear mandate last year. he should under no circumstances give in to this blackmail. his opponents haven't the votes among the membership, which is why they've been so chary about lauching a formal leadership challenge.

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

also, corbyn is so bad at convincing new people that labour membership doubled since corbyn won.

Statistically speaking, people who join political parties are weird minority extremists, in no way representative of the wider electorate. Corbyn's performances in wider opinion polls have been awful. If he stays as leader, I expect Labour to either split like it did in the early 80s, or lose at least 50 seats in the next election.

[Dinner]

Fair or not, for the good of the party he should go unless it is all about his ego and he just does not care about the party. If it isn't about his personal ego then he should act like a loyal party man and do what is best for the party as a whole.