So how long will Ben last this time?

[Ben Kenobi]

I'm not sure why you call people protestants who were rejected by protestants. Can you explain that?

Well, gee. Given that Luther strapped them and burnt them I would have to argue it's because Mennonites practiced the faith that Lutherans did not.

As a Catholic, it's not great shakes to point out that divisions among protestants are a natural consequence of division from the Body of Christ.

Mennonites would argue that they were the real protestants, and that Anglicans in particular had become corrupt. In the sense that they believed what Christ taught. They are also Nestorians, which is why I left when I realized that Menno Simons taught heresy concerning the nature of God. It's one thing to become Catholic because you are convinced it is true, another to leave your church because it teaches heresy.

That was my life from late 2003 to early 2005 or so, coming to grips with this. Conversion isn't an instant process. You can see some of my early thoughts here.

[Kidlicious]

Because protestants were moral cesspools? Yes, I'm aware of their persecution of Mennonites. If you wanted a religion that despised Anglicans, that was a good faith to practice.

Mennonites would argue that they were the real protestants, and that Anglicans in particular had become corrupt.

So you wanted to join a religion that despised Anglicans and you wanted to call yourself a protestant?

[Ben Kenobi]

So you wanted to join a religion that despised Anglicans and you wanted to call yourself a protestant?

My definition of a protestant is any group that accepts the first five ecumenical councils, but none of the rest, even if they don't know what an ecumenical council is, or understand where their theology comes from.

Mennonites meet that definition, as do Anglicans, Lutherans, Calvinists, etc. Orthodox are a different group, as are the earlier non-Chalcedonian Christians.

This definition excludes the Witnesses and the Mormons.

[Kidlicious]

My definition of a protestant is any group that accepts the first five ecumenical councils, but none of the rest, even if they don't know what an ecumenical council is, or understand where their theology comes from.

Mennonites meet that definition, as do Anglicans, Lutherans, Calvinists, etc. Orthodox are a different group, as are the earlier non-Chalcedonian Christians.

This definition excludes the Witnesses and the Mormons.

Re-baptism is a big deal. Re-baptism is saying infant baptism doesn't count. I don't see how you can lump churches that don't re-baptize with those who do, and churches that have persecuted other churches with churches that have been persecuted.

[Ben Kenobi]

Re-baptism is a big deal. Re-baptism is saying infant baptism doesn't count. I don't see how you can lump churches that don't re-baptize with those who do, and churches that have persecuted other churches with churches that have been persecuted.

Re-baptism wasn't an issue for the first five ecumenical councils because it wasn't practiced then. Same argument vis-a-vis the blessed sacrament, and transubstantiation. If you want to accept all the church councils, you won't be a protestant. If you don't you can't exclude others who also reject the later councils.

[Ben Kenobi]

Personally I felt more at home with Baptists and evangelicals and Catholics than I did with Anglicans. I see that as the great divide, even within the denominations for Lutherans and Presbyterians now.

There are not a great deal of beliefs that every Protestant shares in common.

[Bereta_Eder]

The question never was why you believe what you believe.
Noone cares.

The question was why are you so ****ed up.

Byzantines and crusaders don't interest anyoone anymore, it's just a vehicle for you to describe your complete lack of empathy.

Similar attempts to try and blame the victim (with always money on your mind) seem to be your stance in life. It manifests a complete lack of empathy and makes you certaintly NOT a catholic.

Oh well
here's a nice song of celtic music by serbians

[kentonio]

She was promised to him in marriage prior to the massacre. Which is my point.

Glad to see you've conceded that by acknowledging that the contract was already written.

You shamelessly dishonest bastard.

She was promised to Alexios, the boy who Andronikos forced to share power with him and then had murdered. The fact that the King of France then had no problems with her marrying Andronikos, the man in power at the time of the massacre shows exactly the kind of priorities Kings had at the time.

[Kidlicious]

Personally I felt more at home with Baptists and evangelicals and Catholics than I did with Anglicans. I see that as the great divide, even within the denominations for Lutherans and Presbyterians now.

There are not a great deal of beliefs that every Protestant shares in common.

I see Protestantism, originally, as a movement to get back to the beliefs, and practices of the early Christians and disciples. But it's changing now, and really just in the last 100 years. The Anglican church was possibly never evangelical really, but the Methodist church was. But this is coming from someone who started going to a Methodist church largely due to the teachings of John Wesley. I don't call myself by any denomination though, probably because the Methodist church doesn't really follow John Wesley's teachings anymore, except for individual churches.

[NICE MOBIUS]

Apolyton I credit with driving me further to the right (I was a centrist when I first came on here), and showing me the errors of my ways. So many polytubbies have shown me that the way was not with the angry, bitter *******s who pucker up when someone cries the word, "novena". Who go out of their way to treat me like a piece of crap just because they disagree with me.

There's no better way to convert a fellow classical liberal than to treat him like dirt.

Apolyton is a fantastic apostolate to the Way. I must give you folks full credit for driving me into the arms of His Church.

This utter tripe is possibly one of the funniest things I think I have ever seen you post - well done!

If you truly believe that, you must be one of the most deluded individuals I have ever come across...

Keep up the awesome entertainment!

[Ben Kenobi]

If you truly believe that, you must be one of the most deluded individuals I have ever come across.

People tend to respect folks that take the time to treat them well. The opposite is also true .

[Ben Kenobi]

I see Protestantism, originally, as a movement to get back to the beliefs, and practices of the early Christians and disciples.

The problem is one of epistemology. How do we know anything about what the ancient church traditions and believes? Protestantism says this, but how they answer this question is always interesting.

But it's changing now, and really just in the last 100 years. The Anglican church was possibly never evangelical really, but the Methodist church was. But this is coming from someone who started going to a Methodist church largely due to the teachings of John Wesley. I don't call myself by any denomination though, probably because the Methodist church doesn't really follow John Wesley's teachings anymore, except for individual churches.

Yes, part of the problem is many churches don't even remember their own history and how they came about.

[Ben Kenobi]

She was promised to Alexios, the boy who Andronikos forced to share power with him and then had murdered. The fact that the King of France then had no problems with her marrying Andronikos, the man in power at the time of the massacre shows exactly the kind of priorities Kings had at the time.

Your argument asserted that his wife was sent to Byzantium prior to the massacre. That she was betrothed prior indicates that the connection was established prior. There are many examples of betrothals of a brother, and a wife taking up with the other brother should one die.

[Proteus_MST]

The problem is one of epistemology. How do we know anything about what the ancient church traditions and believes? Protestantism says this, but how they answer this question is always interesting.

...

I agree, considering that the bible protestants use isn´t so much different from the bible the catholics use.
(which is why I cannot see protestantism as more than an an offshoot of catholicism (although with less rituals and more adhering to the bible ... but surely not like a more original religion than catholicism (despite the fact that Jack Chick loves to try to persuade people how the King James bible is the only true bible and the catholic bible corrupted by Satan )

Early christian groups were either victim of wars, or their faith declared to be haeresias and they themselves persecuted and their books burned, so that we don´t have all too much material about them (see the Nag Hammadi Library, which is almost our only source for original gnostic manuscripts (although AFAIK in Iraq with Manicheism there exists a belief system that has roots in gnosticism (unfortunately a religion that is threatened to become extinct due to the small size of its followeship and dangers posed to its members by groups like ISIS and other muslim extremists))

[SlowwHand]

That's the original of the Fish symbol.