So how long will Ben last this time?

[Kidlicious]

The problem is one of epistemology. How do we know anything about what the ancient church traditions and believes? Protestantism says this, but how they answer this question is always interesting.

The Holy Spirit

Yes, part of the problem is many churches don't even remember their own history and how they came about.

Who care about church history? That means nothing. The Methodist church believes in tradition, but they define tradition as an accumulation of reason. That makes no sense. Some people are going to get it right, and others aren't, and there's not much that can be done about that.

[Ben Kenobi]

Who care about church history? That means nothing. The Methodist church believes in tradition, but they define tradition as an accumulation of reason. That makes no sense. Some people are going to get it right, and others aren't, and there's not much that can be done about that.

It makes no sense to me either. History is really everything. If you don't know your history you don't know who you really are. People have justified whatever they believe with the "holy spirit", which is nominalism. The correct answer is that the Holy Spirit would never tell you anything contrary to what scripture tells you. If there's a difference, it ain't the holy spirit.

[Ben Kenobi]

Early christian groups were either victim of wars, or their faith declared to be haeresias and they themselves persecuted and their books burned, so that we don´t have all too much material about them

Actually we do. The problem is that the answer to your question is that the early church *is* the Catholic church.

[kentonio]

Your argument asserted that his wife was sent to Byzantium prior to the massacre. That she was betrothed prior indicates that the connection was established prior. There are many examples of betrothals of a brother, and a wife taking up with the other brother should one die.

Stop ****ing lying. Just admit you were wrong, you pathological liar.

[Ben Kenobi]

Stop ****ing lying. Just admit you were wrong, you pathological liar.

LOL, you're the one who didn't look at the dates carefully enough.

[Kidlicious]

It makes no sense to me either. History is really everything. If you don't know your history you don't know who you really are. People have justified whatever they believe with the "holy spirit", which is nominalism. The correct answer is that the Holy Spirit would never tell you anything contrary to what scripture tells you. If there's a difference, it ain't the holy spirit.

The only way you can understand God's truth is by the Holy Spirit. You can't comprehend it because you aren't divine. Only the Holy Spirit can make you understand it. This is how the apostles understood God's truth. Your claim that your history tells you who you are is ridiculous. If that were true we would all be dead, and as far as you think you can understand God's truth by looking at your history you are dead.

Philosophy is perfectly right in saying that life must be understood backward. But then one forgets the other clause--that it must be lived forward. The more one thinks through this clause, the more one concludes that life in temporality never becomes properly understandable, simply because never at any one time does one get the perfect to take a stance--backward.

-Soren Kierkegaard

[Proteus_MST]

Actually we do. The problem is that the answer to your question is that the early church *is* the Catholic church.

Nope ... the earliest church surely is a group of jewish hippies, running around as appendage to this Jesus-guy.
What came after that ... i.e. whether the philosophy/religious ideas of Jesus are well represented by that, which became the catholic church ... or whether they got twisted by them for one reason or the other (after all, humans are fallible ... and the people that make up the catholic church are no less humans than anyone else) cannot be answered (by someone else than Doctor Who ... or some other person in possession of a time machine).

Perhaps some of the other early christian sects represented the original christian faith better ... but their ideas were rejected at the synodes in the eastern roman empire (for example for power political interests or because the followers of such ideas weren´t well liked among the members of the synodes)

[Kidlicious]

Actually we do. The problem is that the answer to your question is that the early church *is* the Catholic church.

The catholic church has changed over the centuries and continues to change.

[Kidlicious]

Nope ... the earliest church surely is a group of jewish hippies, running around as appendage to this Jesus-guy.
What came after that ... i.e. whether the philosophy/religious ideas of Jesus are well represented by that, which became the catholic church ... or whether they got twisted by them for one reason or the other (after all, humans are fallible ... and the people that make up the catholic church are no less humans than anyone else) cannot be answered (by someone else than Doctor Who ... or some other person in possession of a time machine).

Perhaps some of the other early christian sects represented the original christian faith better ... but their ideas were rejected at the synodes in the eastern roman empire (for example for power political interests or because the followers of such ideas weren´t well liked among the members of the synodes)

This is true. No one in the church spoke of a bishop being in the place of God until the beginning of the Catholic Church which was during the second century.

[Ben Kenobi]

This is true. No one in the church spoke of a bishop being in the place of God until the beginning of the Catholic Church which was during the second century.

False. St. Clement spoke of it, saint and Pope.

And we, too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works which we have wrought in holiness of heart; but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

First century, direct quote from St. Clement of Rome. He goes on to say in his 1st Epistle...

The apostles have preached the gospel to us from the Lord Jesus Christ; Jesus Christ [has done so] from God. Christ therefore was sent forth by God, and the apostles by Christ. Both these appointments, then, were made in an orderly way, according to the will of God. Having therefore received their orders, and being fully assured by the resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ, and established in the word of God, with full assurance of the Holy Ghost, they went forth proclaiming that the kingdom of God was at hand. And thus preaching through countries and cities, they appointed the first fruits [of their labours], having first proved them by the Spirit, to be bishops and deacons of those who should afterwards believe. Nor was this any new thing, since indeed many ages before it was written concerning bishops and deacons. For thus says the Scripture in a certain place, “I will appoint their bishops in righteousness, and their deacons in faith.”

Your argument is thusly, that the Church originated in the 1st century sometime around 90 AD.

In contrast, we have Justin the Martyr who is the first to cite the Apocalypse as a canonical book, in the middle of the second century.

Bishops, priests, deacons all predate the closure of the Canon.

[Ben Kenobi]

The catholic church has changed over the centuries and continues to change.

And the cells of your bodies change, but you are still Kidicious.

[Ben Kenobi]

Nope ... the earliest church surely is a group of jewish hippies, running around as appendage to this Jesus-guy.

Got any evidence to support this position? I cited evidence for my position of continuity.

What came after that ... i.e. whether the philosophy/religious ideas of Jesus are well represented by that, which became the catholic church ... or whether they got twisted by them for one reason or the other (after all, humans are fallible ... and the people that make up the catholic church are no less humans than anyone else) cannot be answered (by someone else than Doctor Who ... or some other person in possession of a time machine).

We can answer definitively that by 90 AD that there were priests, bishops and deacons, then as now.

Perhaps some of the other early christian sects represented the original christian faith better ... but their ideas were rejected at the synodes in the eastern roman empire (for example for power political interests or because the followers of such ideas weren´t well liked among the members of the synodes)

And which synods were these and when did they occur, and what did they teach?

[Ben Kenobi]

The only way you can understand God's truth is by the Holy Spirit. You can't comprehend it because you aren't divine. Only the Holy Spirit can make you understand it. This is how the apostles understood God's truth.

And God does not contradict himself.

Your claim that your history tells you who you are is ridiculous.

Indeed it does.

If that were true we would all be dead, and as far as you think you can understand God's truth by looking at your history you are dead.

You understand your ndentity through genetics, which is simply the sum of your inheritance from your forefathers. If you don't understand your history you do not understand who you are.

[Kidlicious]

And the cells of your bodies change, but you are still Kidicious.

But I'm not what I used to be. I have some health problems, and it's not going to get any better.

[Ben Kenobi]

But I'm not what I used to be. I have some health problems, and it's not going to get any better.

Indeed, you are a new man. And yet you are still Kidicious. That is my point. Yes, the Church does change in it's constituent parts, but the identity does not change. You have a soul that does not change, that has been given to you by God, while the Church has Christ as it's head.