Christian business owners . . .

[Sava]

Are you saying that God can't make a holy spirit that is either one? or both at the same time?

blasphemy

[Ben Kenobi]

to argue that the dictionary definitions are not the dictionary definitions.

I'm not even arguing that at all. I'm saying that if I want a definition of what constitutes the Christian faith, I talk to the Church - not to a dictionary. It's a question of authority. I'm attacking your first premiss which you haven't even acknowledged - "we can obtain a reliable source on what Christianity believes from a dictionary".

[Ben Kenobi]

Are you saying that God can't make a holy spirit that is either one? or both at the same time?

I'm saying that the Holy Spirit is a person, and that the Holy Spirit is God too.

[Ben Kenobi]

You cow to authority figures and are incapable of thinking for yourself. Doesn't change what the dictionary definition of Christian is.

Which is why the dictionary is God here? I'm amused that the one citing an authority without thinking through why this is their chosen authority is the one who's capable of thinking for himself. I know why I follow the Catholic church - because they were there first and I think there's substantial historical evidence in favor of this assertion.

Even so, on this question - multiple Christian churches have the same answer even as they disagree on other finer points. This to me is corroboration.

Why do you believe that the dictionary is the best source for this? The dictionary doesn't even claim this.

[rah]

When I was growing up and attending catholic school, in our religion classes, over the eight years we saw the gradual change of referring to the one aspect as the "Holy spirit" instead of the "Holy Ghost" because a lot of kids were taking it to mean literally Holy Ghost. Hilarious.

[Sava]

I'm not even arguing that at all. I'm saying that if I want a definition of what constitutes the Christian faith, I talk to the Church - not to a dictionary. It's a question of authority. I'm attacking your first premiss which you haven't even acknowledged - "we can obtain a reliable source on what Christianity believes from a dictionary".

You aren't even a real Christian and are probably the worst possible person to make this argument.

Stop.

[Ben Kenobi]

The Catholic Church has changed their stance on many things over time. By your logic then they aren't Catholic. You're stupid.

Like what?

I'm not the one arguing that God is neither eternal nor uncreated. I can explicitly point out when this became doctrine and why this is crucial to Christian belief.

Since you mention the hypothetical where Joseph Smith is seen as a prophet, in that case the founder of the LDS Church is Jesus Christ. Because that is what Joseph Smith taught, what the Book of Mormon says, and is official LDS Church doctrine.

But it's not what he taught. That's my point Adam is now God is what Joseph Smith actually taught. I have already cited evidence from Brigham frickin' Young proving this. You think you know better than Brigham Young?

Adam-God never was official LDS Church doctrine, Joseph Smith was never recorded as having taught it, Brigham Young at best thought it wasn't a pertinent issue in regards to salvation.

One, false. It was LDS 'official' doctrine until around the 70s when the evidence was widely circulated. Then the Mormons claimed they'd 'evolved' from it. Yet, still use the Book of Mormon.

Two, false. Joseph Smith was recorded by several sources as having said it, we're talking 5 people, all of them bigwigs in Mormonism, and including Brigham Young.

Three, Christians consider it a crucial belief.

Your claim is that every Catholic who has ever lived is the Magisterium in and of themselves.

I've never claimed that. The Magisterium is constituted of the priests, and bishops from St. Peter onwards.

It is funny that you can accept that doctrine has a path to become doctrine for Catholics, but can't even conceive that the LDS Church has a similar system. Just another way that you demonstrate how narrow minded and stupid you are.

I do, which is why I'm arguing that Joseph Smith is your founder and your prophet, except when he's telling lies. What you don't see is that if he's lying to you on the fundamental nature of God, he's also lying to you about the Golden Plates.

There were no Plates, Aeson.

[Ben Kenobi]

The truth is BK and Imran both have very strange beliefs for Christians.

On one side we have Imran, myself, and the other Christians.

On the other hand we have Aeson- who disagrees that God is eternal and uncreated, and you.

I'll take my chances with Imran that given our vast disagreement that this is not a strange belief.

[Ben Kenobi]

You aren't even a real Christian and are probably the worst possible person to make this argument.

On the contrary. If even Kenobi gets it shouldn't other, wiser individuals get it too?

[Sava]

On the contrary. If even Kenobi gets it shouldn't other, wiser individuals get it too?

that's one angle

but the whole broken clock being right twice a day thing is weighing heavily on me now

[giblets]

When I was growing up and attending catholic school, in our religion classes, over the eight years we saw the gradual change of referring to the one aspect as the "Holy spirit" instead of the "Holy Ghost" because a lot of kids were taking it to mean literally Holy Ghost. Hilarious.

A burning bush, a magician and a ghost. Nice pantheon

[rah]

Taught by a group of the most religious/saintly people I've ever known but were not considered qualified to be priests.
Yet if you could diddle little boys, you qualified. Go figure.

[Kidlicious]

But what does 'Holy Spirit' mean? Are you saying the Holy Spirit is a person or an impersonal force?

It's a spirit and it's holy numb nuts. I thought even you would get that one.

[Aeson]

Like what?

You really are a moron.

But it's not what he taught. That's my point Adam is now God is what Joseph Smith actually taught. I have already cited evidence from Brigham frickin' Young proving this. You think you know better than Brigham Young?

It's not about what I know, it's about what can be proven. Heresay is not proof. It was never LDS Church doctrine.

Yet, still use the Book of Mormon.

The Book of Mormon is about a group of Jews who travelled tot he Americas in the BCs, and Christ appearing in the Americas and founding a Church there. It has exactly jack squat to do with Adam-God.

Two, false. Joseph Smith was recorded by several sources as having said it, we're talking 5 people, all of them bigwigs in Mormonism, and including Brigham Young.

All heresay. There were other important members of the LDS Church at the same time who disagreed with Brigham Young, and the LDS Church doctrine followed after them rather than Brigham Young.

Three, Christians consider it a crucial belief.

You're just using circular logic. You take a grouping of people, claim they are Christians, and use their beliefs as proof for what Christians believe. You could do the same with any group. All it shows is your own prejudices.

I've never claimed that. The Magisterium is constituted of the priests, and bishops from St. Peter onwards.

You quoted what I said, and affirmed it was exactly right.

I do, which is why I'm arguing that Joseph Smith is your founder and your prophet, except when he's telling lies. What you don't see is that if he's lying to you on the fundamental nature of God, he's also lying to you about the Golden Plates.

a) he's not my anything.
b) if you accept what Joseph Smith said, there's no reason to not accept what he said. However there's a very good reason to not accept what he didn't say as something he did say, or simply what other people claimed he said without having any evidence.

There were no Plates, Aeson.

I'd say it's very likely there were no golden plates (or they were fakes if they ever existed). Which is of course par for the course with religion in general. The evidence to support there being golden plates is similar to the evidence that Jesus was resurrected. That is to say, only heresay.

[C0ckney]

It's a spirit and it's holy numb nuts. I thought even you would get that one.

you really ought to consider becoming a theologian.