I've gotten another jury summons

[Ban Kenobi]

So you don't believe that clerical celibacy was a contributing cause?

It might reduce the likelihood of normal people entering the clergy, since they have to give up the possibility of marriage, while pedophiles with no interest in adults might be just as likely to enter the clergy as before because they have nothing to lose. Other than that, it's irrelevant. The leaders of the church bear responsibility for enabling child rape.

[rah]

How is expressing your religious opinion that you believe the Catholic church should ordain women and do gay marriages and accept contraception any different from me expressing my religious opinion that the Catholic church should do none of these three things?

Typical Ben. I have never said that church should ordain women, do gay marriage or accept contraception. And I have never said you weren't a Catholic because you think the church should not do these things.

I have said, I think the church has treated women badly, and that it's none of their business if others should allow gay marriages and that if using contraception disqualifies you as being a catholic than most catholics really aren't catholics. And of course that you're a dishonest jerk.

[MRT144]

So you believe the faith has absolutely nothing to do with them raping boys?

Well, some tenets of the church certainly make it appealing to people who might be into such things. But no, we're not living in an hilarious episode of South Park.

[Ben Kenobi]

Other than that, it's irrelevant.

Interesting opinion. This would mean that the Church doctrine isn't responsible, the men involved are entirely responsible.

The leaders of the church bear responsibility for enabling child rape.

Which leaders bear responsibility?

[Imran Siddiqui]

Your curiousity is less important than someone right to privacy. Since when did any of this crap become more important than someones right to not be harassed?

This isn't a government of Apolyton. It's a message board. People harass each other about their beliefs all the time over here - read any current event troll thread. What do you think those are?

[Ben Kenobi]

But no, we're not living in an hilarious episode of South Park.

How many times do we see the Catholic church as a whole criticized versus the actual individuals involved? I've never seen a post here actually name the individuals. It's always the Catholic church as whole and sometimes Pope Benedict.

[Ben Kenobi]

I have said, I think the church has treated women badly, and that it's none of their business if others should allow gay marriages and that if using contraception disqualifies you as being a catholic than most catholics really aren't catholics. And of course that you're a dishonest jerk.

So you agree with the male-only priesthood, and with the church teachings that homosexual inclinations are sinful?

[Imran Siddiqui]

Typical Ben. I have never said that church should ordain women, do gay marriage or accept contraception. And I have never said you weren't a Catholic because you think the church should not do these things.

I have said, I think the church has treated women badly, and that it's none of their business if others should allow gay marriages and that if using contraception disqualifies you as being a catholic than most catholics really aren't catholics. And of course that you're a dishonest jerk.

I'm confused here. So you haven't said the church should accept contraception, but you think the church banning birth control is unrealistic. Doesn't that imply that you believe the former? Or do you not and think that the church should not accept contraception, but be more merciful against those who do?

[kentonio]

This isn't a government of Apolyton. It's a message board. People harass each other about their beliefs all the time over here - read any current event troll thread. What do you think those are?

People willingly stepping into the ring and throwing jabs at each other. That isn't harassment, that willing participation.

You really should go back and read Rule 01 btw.

[rah]

I think it's unrealistic and that Ben shouldn't say people that use it aren't Catholics. Simple enough?

Ben, as I've said before, I'm not going to answer your questions because of how you will twist anything that I say.

[Imran Siddiqui]

I think it's unrealistic and that Ben shouldn't say people that use it aren't Catholics. Simple enough?

What about the Church? I mean Ben isn't necessarily saying anything that the Church isn't saying here - though they may not be as harsh (in public ), I'm pretty sure the Church considers the use of contraceptives as sinful. So, what do you think the Church should do on this matter? There was a belief that when Vatican II occurred that there may be a re-visitation on contraception mandates.

[Ben Kenobi]

Ben shouldn't say people that use it aren't Catholics

It's contrary to what the catechism teaches. Expressly stating that it's not wrong, and that Catholics are not morally obligated to obey the catechism is a grave sin.

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a6.htm

2369 By safeguarding both these essential aspects, the unitive and the procreative, the conjugal act preserves in its fullness the sense of true mutual love and its orientation toward man's exalted vocation to parenthood."

2370 Periodic continence, that is, the methods of birth regulation based on self-observation and the use of infertile periods, is in conformity with the objective criteria of morality.158

These methods respect the bodies of the spouses, encourage tenderness between them, and favor the education of an authentic freedom. In contrast, "every action which, whether in anticipation of the conjugal act, or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible" is intrinsically evil 159

[rah]

Just because a Catholic commits a sin doesn't make them not Catholic. All it does it makes them a sinner. If sinner's can't be Catholics then there are no Catholics.

I don't believe I ever said it wasn't a sin according to the church.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Just because a Catholic commits a sin doesn't make them not Catholic. All it does it makes them a sinner. If sinner's can't be Catholics then there are no Catholics.

I don't believe I ever said it wasn't a sin according to the church.

But do you think it SHOULD be a sin according to the Church?

I don't think the issue is whether sinners can't be Catholics (we are all fallen and therefore sinful), but people who do not believe that the Catholic Church's teaching is correct and teach other things, re: sin, are still Catholic - the question is why? What makes them still Catholic if they disavow the teachings of the Church? Why not become Protestant? Is there something there in the Catholic Church that you find worth staying within if you disagree with them on things?

Now, I can see why liberal Catholics may wish to stay - they believe in the Tradition of the Church, though feel that the teaching is not correct on abortion, contraception, gay marriage, but DO believe it is correct on war, death penalty, and helping the poor. Why do you believe it is worth staying?

[notyoueither]

Yes, but even having a figurehead King or Queen would be not all that acceptable in non-European countries.

Most members of the Commonwealth didn't get that memo.