I've gotten another jury summons

[MRT144]

What would distinguish a moderate from a liberal Catholic?

How much they prattle on about the catholic church.

[Ben Kenobi]

A person's religious beliefs should be a private matter... attacking a flawed institution is fair game... those are two different things so your argument is meaningless

You're attacking the Catholic church because you believe that individual religious opinions are valid public matters. So does rah for that matter. This is why Imran is calling him out.

If you believed that individual religious opinions were not valid public matters, you'd not be expressing your views on the Catholic church.

[Ben Kenobi]

This is kind of the basis for an intellectually honest conversation. Not saying Ben is intellectually honest, but if you tear something down, you are expected to state what your alternative is. Just because Ben is intellectually dishonest, doesn't mean everyone should be as well.

The correct argument here is that, "Ben is intellectually honest, and people who are intellectually dishonest are calling him intellectually dishonest." What does it mean when someone who is intellectually dishonest calls someone else this? Logically one would surmise exactly the opposite.

[Ben Kenobi]

How much they prattle on about the catholic church.

Thank you MikeH. That's an incredibly useful definition.

[Ban Kenobi]

Covering up pedophile priests and transferring them to another parish so they can claim more victims obviously isn't a "private matter" and just because someone criticizes it doesn't mean they think religion isn't a private matter...

[MRT144]

Thank you MikeH. That's an incredibly useful definition.

Case in point.

[Ben Kenobi]

he felt their hateful bigotry most closely matched his.

Yes, it has nothing to do with the fact that the protestant churches were for the most part founded by ex-Catholic priests, thus proving that Catholicism came first. It also has nothing to do with the fact that protestants disagree on when the 'Great Apostasy' actually occurred.

[Ben Kenobi]

Covering up pedophile priests and transferring them to another parish so they can claim more victims obviously isn't a "private matter" and just because someone criticizes it doesn't mean they think religion isn't a private matter...

Why not? You've stated that religion is a private matter. What gives you the right to criticize another person's faith?

You simply wish to insulate yourself while attacking everyone else. That's not very intellectually honest, now is it?

[Ban Kenobi]

I can criticize someone for raping boys without criticizing their "faith".

[Ben Kenobi]

Just because I think religion is a private mater doesn't mean I can't say how the church handled their pedophile priests was bad. Or I don't agree how they treat women in general.

Uh, yeah, it does. You're expressing your opinion that religion should be x at the same time you're saying, 'religion is a private affair.'

So, tell us where the Church is right, rah.

[Ben Kenobi]

I can criticize someone for raping boys without criticizing their "faith".

So you believe the faith has absolutely nothing to do with them raping boys?

[rah]

Ben doesn't see the difference. No surprise.

[Ban Kenobi]

So you believe the faith has absolutely nothing to do with them raping boys?

Raping boys is obviously against their own religion. However the corrupt Catholic church as an organization had a lot to do with covering it up and perpetuating it.

[Ben Kenobi]

Ben doesn't see the difference. No surprise.

How is expressing your religious opinion that you believe the Catholic church should ordain women and do gay marriages and accept contraception any different from me expressing my religious opinion that the Catholic church should do none of these three things?

[Ben Kenobi]

However the corrupt Catholic church as an organization had a lot to do with covering it up and perpetuating it.

So you don't believe that clerical celibacy was a contributing cause?