The Gold Plated Ambulance

[Ben Kenobi]

They pulled the plug on her, she was kept alive by machines.

This is false.

That was you claiming euthanasia and assisted suicide were the same, exactly the same.

I said that I believed euthanasia and Murder were the exact same.

It aint BS, I just dont care enough to google examples

Well then. Bully for you.

If the Schiavo case was neither euthanasia or assisted suicide why are you bringing it up?

Starving someone isn't 'allowing them to die'.

[Ben Kenobi]

I certainly don't recall anyone church-related condemning it.

Ok,

http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles2/JacobseMartyrdom.php

Pretty good article here.

Again - she was not being kept alive by machines. All she needed is the same thing everyone else does, food and water. Nutrition and hydration which she was deprived.

[kentonio]

She was denied food and water. She was starved and dehydrated, which is a horrible way to go. She lasted 13 days before she finally died.

Absolutely right (although it's questionable whether she knew anything about it, given that she was basically brain dead). Any humane society would have given her morphine and let her die quickly and with definite peace, but then again very few societies are truly civilized due to religious nutjobs like you.

They arrested folks who tried to bring her some.

I assume those people had previously asked her permission to try and force food into her body?

[Ben Kenobi]

Absolutely right (although it's questionable whether she knew anything about it, given that she was basically brain dead). Any humane society would have given her morphine and let her die quickly and with definite peace, but then again very few societies are truly civilized due to religious nutjobs like you.

She wasn't terminally ill, wasn't sick and wasn't in pain prior to being starved.

I assume those people had previously asked her permission to try and force food into her body?

Do you need permission to try to feed someone being starved?

[kentonio]

She wasn't terminally ill, wasn't sick and wasn't in pain prior to being starved.

She had the right to get up and eat any time she liked.

Do you need permission to try to feed someoe being starved?

Do you need permission to force feed people? Yes of course you do. Why do you want to deny people the freedom to not eat?

[Ben Kenobi]

She had the right to get up and eat any time she liked.

Apparently we can starve babies now too.

Do you need permission to force feed people? Yes of course you do. Why do you want to deny people the freedom to not eat?

It's called neglect. Most normal people would consider it horrifying for a caregiver to starve people in their care.

[kentonio]

Apparently we can starve babies now too.

Oh so now you think that because she was a woman that she should only have the same legal rights as a baby? How horrible chauvinistic of you.

[DaShi]

Ben is afraid of women.

[Berzerker]

This is false.

They were pumping stuff into her and they stopped, thats pulling the plug - and they did it that way because of people opposed to euthanasia.

I said that I believed euthanasia and Murder were the exact same.

No, Rah said this:

I consider assisted suicides not the same thing.

And you said:

They are the same thing. Exactly the same thing.

Well then. Bully for you.

Here you go:

http://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/bush-should-feel-doctors-pain

Starving someone isn't 'allowing them to die'.

You didn't answer my question, if the Schiavo case was neither euthanasia or assisted suicide why are you bringing it up?

[Ben Kenobi]

Oh so now you think that because she was a woman that she should only have the same legal rights as a baby? How horrible chauvinistic of you.

As opposed to letting someone starve because they need help eating?

[Ben Kenobi]

They were pumping stuff into her

What stuff were they pumping into her?

thats pulling the plug

They could have fed her the usual way. It would just have taken somewhat longer.

They are the same thing. Exactly the same thing.

To murder. *Sigh*. Murder and euthanasia are the same thing.

http://www.cato.org/publications/com...l-doctors-pain

One doctor convicted, Hurwitz. Hurwitz admitted to knowingly providing Opiates to drug traffickers. He wasn't arrested for the legitimate prescriptions, but for the indiscriminate issuance of Opiates.

You didn't answer my question, if the Schiavo case was neither euthanasia or assisted suicide why are you bringing it up?

I believe the Schiavo case is a case of euthanasia. Said it before will say it now.

[Ben Kenobi]

Ben is afraid of women.

At least I can grow a beard.

[DaShi]

Yeah, that's highly unlikely.

[Berzerker]

What stuff were they pumping into her?

They could have fed her the usual way. It would just have taken somewhat longer.

She could swallow food and water on her own? They were using machines to keep her fed and they pulled the plug.

To murder. *Sigh*. Murder and euthanasia are the same thing.

That isn't what you told Rah, he said there was a difference between euthanasia and assisted suicide and you said they were the same thing. Go look for yourself. If you're saying there are differences between the two, fine - you're right.

One doctor convicted, Hurwitz. Hurwitz admitted to knowingly providing Opiates to drug traffickers. He wasn't arrested for the legitimate prescriptions, but for the indiscriminate issuance of Opiates.

Yeah, I knew you'd react like that - kinda why I didn't care to look for an example. The article offers stats showing many many cases, the author focused on one. And the doctor was prescribing opiates to someone who was selling the stuff. That makes doctors criminally liable for what their patients do with the stuff. This time you can google pain management and the DEA, there's plenty of articles about the subject.

I believe the Schiavo case is a case of euthanasia. Said it before will say it now.

Here's what you said:

Euthanasia isn't 'allowing to die'.

They allowed her to die, they pulled the plug

[Ben Kenobi]

She could swallow food and water on her own?

With assistance from a caregiver, yeah she could. Just takes longer than a feeding tube.

That isn't what you told Rah

Pretty sure I know better what I said to rah than someone who wasn't even in the thread. Dunno how you figure you'd convince me.

Yeah, I knew you'd react like that

It's the truth. It's why he was charged in the first place and why he was successfully convicted. He was able to convince the jury that many, but not all of the prescriptions issued were legitimate. The court found in his favor that high doses of opiodes (believe that's correct), is proper palliative care, an opinion which I share too, which is why he served some time, but most of the charges were dropped.

- kinda why I didn't care to look for an example.

The article infers from his arrest that this particular medical practice was seriously harmed by the conviction, but unfortunately the actual trial documents don't seem to bear this out. The Jury accepted that his treatment of high doses for palliative care is medically legitimate. Nothing wrong with your source, just with the benefit of actual hindsight, we can see the actual effects, something that wouldn't have been available to the writer of the article at the time.

The article offers stats showing many many cases, the author focused on one.

The article makes the argument that if he were tried and convicted of all charges, that there would be serious repercussions to the medical establishment in palliative care. This is understandably so. However - that's not what happened. The jury was able to distinguish between legitimate scripts and illegitimate scripts, convicting him for lack of due diligence.

And the doctor was prescribing opiates to someone who was selling the stuff. That makes doctors criminally liable for what their patients do with the stuff.

Yeah, docs should be criminally liable for what the prescribe. Especially when we are talking about powerful painkillers which are targets for drug distribution. I can see why the DEA was flagging him after his massive scripts and clientele. If he were more careful, he would not have been sentenced. As it is, I agree that being taken to court is a chill - but a favorable ruling for his treatment is just the opposite - jurisprudential endorsement of the practice as sound. Meaning that future lawsuits are even less likely to prevail on these grounds.

I believe the Schiavo case is a case of euthanasia. Said it before will say it now.

Berz, I suggest you stop arguing with me over what I said. I think I'm pretty sure on what I said here.

They allowed her to die, they pulled the plug

Starving someone is not 'allowing them to die'. It's just neglect.