Pope sends direct message to Ben

[Kidlicious]

Berz, there's a difference between saying homosexuality is a sin, and homosexuals should be stoned. He says, "let him without sin cast the first stone.". Don't you think adultery is a sin?

[Ben Kenobi]

I actually think it's a good thing. It's better than pastors just giving crappy sermons without anyone forcing them to. Hopefully it will stir some to passion.

Interesting perspective. Personally I'm counting on the Streisand effect. Now everyone will associate, "fat bitter lesbian", with her name.

[kentonio]

He also specifically told her to "sin no more," so if you're pointing at the story as an instance of indulging sin, you're off. Re: homosexuality, the Jews were in no danger of thinking homosexuality was acceptable, since the Law explicitly forbids it. If Jesus did not revise the Law as it pertains to homosexuality, but did revise it as it pertains to other sexual behaviors, why would you assume He was suddenly okay with homosexuality?

Is god/Jesus not omnipotent and omnipresent? What Jesus was saying was not just to a few Jews in the time he was speaking, it was the basis for the bible which then spoke to two thousand years of Christians all over the world. If Jesus wanted to explicitly forbid homosexuality, why would he not do so, despite knowing that in the future this would cause endless problems and confusion? More to the point, if he knew that gay marraige would become legal all across the christian world as is now becoming the case, why wouldn't he have expressly banned it if that was his wish?

[Sava]

Is god/Jesus not omnipotent and omnipresent? What Jesus was saying was not just to a few Jews in the time he was speaking, it was the basis for the bible which then spoke to two thousand years of Christians all over the world. If Jesus wanted to explicitly forbid homosexuality, why would he not do so, despite knowing that in the future this would cause endless problems and confusion? More to the point, if he knew that gay marraige would become legal all across the christian world as is now becoming the case, why wouldn't he have expressly banned it if that was his wish?

I always love religious arguments for this reason. The religionista can never actually be proven wrong. Interpretations of text are twisted to fit personal interpretations. This is why there can only be atheists, agnostics, and fundamentalists. Everyone else is just wishy washy middle of the roadkill... clinging to childish teachings because the task of thinking for oneself is too great to overcome.

[kentonio]

God moves in mysterious ways Sava. :desire:

[Ben Kenobi]

If Jesus wanted to explicitly forbid homosexuality, why would he not do so

He did. Matthew 19. "He made them male and female and for that reason a man will leave his mother and father and cleave to his wife". Already posted above.

[Ben Kenobi]

the task of thinking for oneself is too great to overcome.

Question, if everyone should believe that homosexuality isn't sinful, how do you square this with independence? You're arguing for inter-dependency.

[kentonio]

He did. Matthew 19. "He made them male and female and for that reason a man will leave his mother and father and cleave to his wife". Already posted above.

Which clearly isn't explicitly forbidding anything unless you do some reading between the lines thing which then involves your own personal opinions. The quote could just as easy read..

"He made them male and female and for that reason a man will leave his mother and father and cleave to his wife, except on saturdays when he goes out with his boyfriend"

If god exists then he knew people would be confused today by all this, so why didn't he make it clearer if he actually cared so much about it?

[Ben Kenobi]

Which clearly isn't explicitly forbidding anything

If Jesus believed as you do, why does he spell it out - that not only is marriage for one man and one woman - but that God also created men and women?

What was the purpose behind God creating men AND women?

[kentonio]

If Jesus believed as you do, why does he spell it out - that not only is marriage for one man and one woman - but that God also created men and women?

If he believed as you do then why didn't he spell out that being gay is not allowed? Most people are hetrosexual, perhaps he was just speaking to the majority.

What was the purpose behind God creating men AND women?

Most people aren't gay. Also he needed to create men and women to make gays and lesbians.

[Ben Kenobi]

If he believed as you do then why didn't he spell out that being gay is not allowed? Most people are hetrosexual, perhaps he was just speaking to the majority.

I'm curious how you manage to twist what Jesus said into approval for Gay marriage.

It's right there. Men and women were created for each other.

Also he needed to create men and women to make gays and lesbians.

Or perhaps men and women are complementary to one another.

[kentonio]

I'm curious how you manage to twist what Jesus said into approval for Gay marriage.

It's right there.

I didn't say what he said was approval, I said what he said wasn't disapproval. If I say 'Men should go and eat potatoes' that's not me saying 'It's a sin for men to eat carrots'.

Or perhaps men and women are complementary to one another.

I'm always complementary towards lesbians.

[Ben Kenobi]

I didn't say what he said was approval, I said what he said wasn't disapproval.

Ah. So if Jesus says, "don't fornicate with goats", you interpret that sex with donkeys is a-ok with Jesus.

[kentonio]

Ah. So if Jesus says, "don't fornicate with goats", you interpret that sex with donkeys is a-ok with Jesus.

I'd intepret that as Jesus saying don't fornicate with goats. If he wanted to ban sex with donkeys as well, then surely he'd say 'Don't fornicate with animals'. When people specifically mention something, it's usually because they want to specify that particular thing.

Following your logic, not only is eating fish on a friday a sin, but eating any food on a friday is a sin.

[Ben Kenobi]

I'd intepret that as Jesus saying don't fornicate with goats. If he wanted to ban sex with donkeys as well, then surely he'd say 'Don't fornicate with animals'. When people specifically mention something, it's usually because they want to specify that particular thing.

So how do you interpret when Jesus spells out that Adam and Eve is the model for marriage and that men are to leave their families and cleave to their wife as an endorsement for gay marriage?