Pope sends direct message to Ben

[kentonio]

I say this as someone who thinks the RCC teaching on divorce is absurd, and usually has no objection to excoriating BK.

The pope is clearly trying to move the church away from its dessicated shell of intolerance that leads to normal people feeling utterly detached from it. Ironically the best way to do that appears to be to become more faithful to it's roots and to move away from the corruption that has plagued the church for pretty much two thousand years. Can anyone (other than Ben) really argue that the Vatican has become anything other than a parody of Christian teaching, with it's bank and golden throne and focus on dogma over actual virtue?

The reason even atheist heathens like me are started to feel fondly towards the new pope is the same reason I used to feel fondly towards the CoE vicars over here growing up. He genuinely feels like a humble Christian man who cares more about the poor and needy than he does about the exact wording of some scroll from a thousand years ago. If he succeeds in moving the establishment in that direction then the church has a future, if he fails then it could spell the beginning of the end for Catholicism in the west.

[Elok]

The thing is, plenty of denominations in the US have done what you described. They're all hemorrhaging membership, far faster than traditionalists. The Lutheran church my mom attended as a little girl recently shut down for lack of members to support it. It's not the first, and it won't be the last.

[Ben Kenobi]

The pope is clearly trying to move the church away from its dessicated shell of intolerance

So says who? Bishop Kentonio?

Can anyone (other than Ben) really argue that the Vatican has become anything other than a parody of Christian teaching, with it's bank and golden throne and focus on dogma over actual virtue?

How would you define 'Christian' teaching?

The reason even atheist heathens like me are started to feel fondly towards the new pope is the same reason I used to feel fondly towards the CoE vicars over here growing up

So what changed? The COE vicars changed their doctrine to suit you.

if he fails then it could spell the beginning of the end for Catholicism in the west.

Yeah, the Church is failing when atheists are unhappy with her direction. Sure, Bishop Kentonio, sure.

[Elok]

Also, I suspect Francis is pulling an extended Obama, presenting an image of liberalism far in excess of his actual substantial policies (or his capacity to implement same). It's working a lot longer for him because the symbolic aspects of his office are far weightier for him than they are for the POTUS.

[Ben Kenobi]

They're all hemorrhaging membership, far faster than traditionalists

I find it curious that despite the COE moving towards Kentonio that he doesn't like them anymore.

[kentonio]

The bible is extremely clear. Homosexuality is sinful. I knew this before I became Catholic and I continue to believe this now that I am Catholic. The Catechism is perfectly clear that homosexuality is sinful.

Anyone who genuinely thinks that the best way to bring gays into god's embrace is to ostracisize them and make them feel unwelcome is a ****ing moron quite frankly. I'm quite willing to accept that your ridiculous church could and has believed such an idiotic and counterproductive thing, because to be frank there isn't enough paper in the world to list all the stupid **** the Catholic church has believed over the years. Luckily for you (although you don't seem to realize it yet) Pope Francis is wiser than that.

I am being obedient to Catholic doctrine and the Church by affirming what the Catholic church actually teaches on homosexuality. It's sinful. Can you be forgiven if you repent of homosexuality? Absolutely.

I'm firmly on the side of the Church here.

Here's the thing, you don't get new people coming to god by standing with your back to them telling them they aren't good enough. If part of your role as a Christian is to encourage others to be saved, then you're massively failing at that job. In fact you're actually doing worse than failing, because your hate speech is actively turning people away from the church. Then again from my point of view that's actually a win, so please never change.

Question - do you see repentence as a bad thing?

It's meaningless in the sense that you mean. If you do something bad, the only point in 'repenting' is to teach yourself to not do bad things in future. If you're not using it as a self-help session then you're basically just crying to your imaginary friend.

Where does the atheist get off deciding who is and isn't Christian?

The ironic thing is that the atheist understands Christian virtue better than the supposed Catholic.

[Ben Kenobi]

It's working a lot longer for him because the symbolic aspects of his office are far weightier for him than they are for the POTUS.

It's like Fox Mulder on X-Files. They want to believe. So long as they can convince themselves that this pope is really going to change the church to suit them, they can continue believing in Francis. Delusion is a powerful thing.

[kentonio]

The thing is, plenty of denominations in the US have done what you described. They're all hemorrhaging membership, far faster than traditionalists. The Lutheran church my mom attended as a little girl recently shut down for lack of members to support it. It's not the first, and it won't be the last.

Becoming more tolerant is only part of modernization though, they need to change how they engage with their congregations. We're a society with so much going on around us, that the long preachy sermons really don't hold people in the way they used to. A lot of churches seem to be doing very well though by turning towards music and discussion rather than just sermons and dull hymns.

[kentonio]

Also, I suspect Francis is pulling an extended Obama, presenting an image of liberalism far in excess of his actual substantial policies (or his capacity to implement same). It's working a lot longer for him because the symbolic aspects of his office are far weightier for him than they are for the POTUS.

Yeah probably, but it's working because even people like me who loathe the Catholic church have warmed to him.

[Ben Kenobi]

Anyone who genuinely thinks that the best way to bring gays into god's embrace is to ostracisize them and make them feel unwelcome is a ****ing moron quite frankly.

Why are you saying that a call to repentance is unwelcoming? Saying, "you're condemned to hell, we want nothing to do with you", is not the same thing as, "let Jesus heal you and repent of your sins."

People respond, ultimately, to truth. Homosexuality is sinful. Nothing gay people do will change this. Ever. They even know this, which is why Jesus offers them healing. They can choose to reject him and carry on, or accept him and repent.

But - the door is always open. It's open today. It's open tomorrow. The door is never closed no matter how many times you turn away, so long as you are alive.

I'm quite willing to accept that your ridiculous church could and has believed such an idiotic and counterproductive thing

It's not counterproductive. The Church has a very real goal in encouraging it's members to replace themselves. This is why all the liberal churches are dying. Swiftly.

You're assuming that there's a breach between God's law and natural law, when the two are one and the same. People are built to work with natural law, and it's why the churches that embrace it thrive.

Pope Francis is wiser than that.

Does telling yourself that Pope Francis agrees with you comfort you in the evenings?

Here's the thing, you don't get new people coming to god by standing with your back to them telling them they aren't good enough.

What is truth? You're either following the truth or you're following the lie. If you're following the lie, it doesn't matter how 'good' you are, it's still a lie.

If part of your role as a Christian is to encourage others to be saved, then you're massively failing at that job.

My job is to obey and remain faithful to the teachings of the Church. My job is not to be successful. That is not up to me, but the Holy Spirit. I cannot control whether someone chooses to convert. I can control whether I obey.

because your hate speech is actively turning people away from the church.

Oh. Are you saying that Jesus' teachings never drove anybody away?

It's meaningless in the sense that you mean. If you do something bad, the only point in 'repenting' is to teach yourself to not do bad things in future. If you're not using it as a self-help session then you're basically just crying to your imaginary friend.

The ironic thing is that the atheist understands Christian virtue better than the supposed Catholic.

I've posted your response to demonstrate that this is not, in fact true. Redemption has a purpose in that we benefit from a closer relationship to God, which sin afflicts. Two, we place our salvation at risk with mortal sin.

Sure, you might believe that you understand things, but it's painfully obvious to us that you don't.

[Ben Kenobi]

Becoming more tolerant is only part of modernization though, they need to change how they engage with their congregations. We're a society with so much going on around us, that the long preachy sermons really don't hold people in the way they used to. A lot of churches seem to be doing very well though by turning towards music and discussion rather than just sermons and dull hymns.

Ooh. Why don't we have rock concerts for Jesus! I bet all the hip people will attend.

[kentonio]

Ooh. Why don't we have rock concerts for Jesus! I bet all the hip people will attend.

Christian rock acts have helped a number of churches with retention. How surprising that young people might find the christian teachings expressed in song more appealing than an old man mumbling in occasional latin for two hours.

People respond, ultimately, to truth. Homosexuality is sinful. Nothing gay people do will change this. Ever. They even know this, which is why Jesus offers them healing. They can choose to reject him and carry on, or accept him and repent.

Gay people are born that way. By telling them they are intrinsically bad because they cannot feel any way other than they feel, you're no better than a psychological torturer. You sit there smirking while people suffer and maintain your smug self satisfaction while children kill themselves across the nation because their families have been taught by the church that they are an abomination against god. You are basically scum.

[kentonio]

*edit*

[Elok]

Becoming more tolerant is only part of modernization though, they need to change how they engage with their congregations. We're a society with so much going on around us, that the long preachy sermons really don't hold people in the way they used to. A lot of churches seem to be doing very well though by turning towards music and discussion rather than just sermons and dull hymns.

The same denominations in the US have tried that, too. The problem is, it's easy to go from trying to engage the culture to turning into a silly, irrelevant echo of its values and trappings. If, for whatever reason, a poll next Monday revealed that the majority of Americans thought incest was cool, by Wednesday evening prominent mainline seminarians would be prepping papers on "Images of the sacramental in brother-sister coitus." And they'd still lose members.

I'd go into more detail, maybe be less of a flippant ass, but I'm beat and the wife has a migraine. Hopefully I'll get around to a more intelligent reply tomorrow.

[kentonio]

Oh what perfect timing..

Pope: 'God Is Not Afraid Of New Things'

(Reuters) - Pope Francis has closed an assembly of Catholic bishops that revealed deep divisions on how to respond to homosexuality and divorce, saying on Sunday the Church should not be afraid of change and new challenges.

Francis, who has said he wants a more merciful and less rigid Church, made his comments in a sermon to some 70,000 people in St. Peter's Square for the ceremonial closing of a two-week assembly, known as a synod.

The working session of the gathering ended on Saturday night with a final document that reversed a historic acceptance of gays by the Church made just a week earlier -- a result some progressives see as a setback for Francis.

"God is not afraid of new things. That is why he is continuously surprising us, opening our hearts and guiding us in unexpected ways," the pope said.

At the Mass, he beatified Pope Paul VI, who died in 1978, bringing the pontiff best known for concluding the ground-breaking reforms of the Second Vatican Council and enshrining the Church's ban on contraception a step closer to sainthood.

After an initial draft of the synod's final document was released on Monday, conservative bishops vowed to row back on the upbeat tone adopted regarding gays, cohabitation and re-marriage, saying it would create confusion among the faithful and threatened to undermine the traditional family.

Francis dedicated most of his sermon to the synod, which tackled themes such as homosexuality, divorce, re-marriage, and same-sex couples ahead of a definitive gathering next October after more discussions at a local level around the world.

He said the Church had "to respond courageously to whatever new challenges come our way". He spoke about courage a day after telling the bishops at their last working session to beware both "hostile rigidity" by doctrinal conservatives as well as "destructive good will" by those seeking change at any cost.

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Francis called the synod, where some 200 bishops had heated debates on issues of sexual morality, "a great experience" because participants were able to speak "in true freedom and humble creativity".

Now, he said, "the Church is called to waste no time in seeking to bind up open wounds and to rekindle hope in so many people who have lost hope".

The pope, who urged the bishops to speak their minds frankly at the start of the meeting, told them on Saturday night that he would have been "worried and saddened" if there had not been such honest discussion during the gathering.

Voting tallies released by the Vatican showed that three controversial articles, including the final version of one concerning gays, won an absolute majority but failed to get the two-thirds vote needed for a broad consensus.

But the pope decided to keep even the botched articles, which would have been deleted under normal synod rules, in the final document, meaning the themes will be discussed locally ahead of next year's assembly.

Experts pointed to the long-term results of Francis' new style for such assemblies, which in the past did not take place in two stages and did not allow for wider debate at the local level among the faithful.

"By changing the synod methodology and making sure the assembly’s candid, sometimes contentious discussion was heard around the world, the pope showed he was not afraid of real debate," said John Thavis, author of the bestselling 2013 book "The Vatican Diaries".

"Pope Francis clearly placed the Church on a new path, toward an evangelizing style that is less focused on doctrine and more willing to invite people in, no matter what their status," Thavis wrote in his blog.

Former Pope Benedict XVI attended Sunday's Mass, making only his fourth public appearance at a major Church event since his resignation in March, 2013.