Pope sends direct message to Ben

[Ben Kenobi]

Anyone who genuinely thinks that the best way to bring gays into god's embrace is to ostracisize them and make them feel unwelcome is a ****ing moron quite frankly.

Why are you saying that a call to repentance is unwelcoming? Saying, "you're condemned to hell, we want nothing to do with you", is not the same thing as, "let Jesus heal you and repent of your sins."

People respond, ultimately, to truth. Homosexuality is sinful. Nothing gay people do will change this. Ever. They even know this, which is why Jesus offers them healing. They can choose to reject him and carry on, or accept him and repent.

But - the door is always open. It's open today. It's open tomorrow. The door is never closed no matter how many times you turn away, so long as you are alive.

I'm quite willing to accept that your ridiculous church could and has believed such an idiotic and counterproductive thing

It's not counterproductive. The Church has a very real goal in encouraging it's members to replace themselves. This is why all the liberal churches are dying. Swiftly.

You're assuming that there's a breach between God's law and natural law, when the two are one and the same. People are built to work with natural law, and it's why the churches that embrace it thrive.

Pope Francis is wiser than that.

Does telling yourself that Pope Francis agrees with you comfort you in the evenings?

Here's the thing, you don't get new people coming to god by standing with your back to them telling them they aren't good enough.

What is truth? You're either following the truth or you're following the lie. If you're following the lie, it doesn't matter how 'good' you are, it's still a lie.

If part of your role as a Christian is to encourage others to be saved, then you're massively failing at that job.

My job is to obey and remain faithful to the teachings of the Church. My job is not to be successful. That is not up to me, but the Holy Spirit. I cannot control whether someone chooses to convert. I can control whether I obey.

because your hate speech is actively turning people away from the church.

Oh. Are you saying that Jesus' teachings never drove anybody away?

It's meaningless in the sense that you mean. If you do something bad, the only point in 'repenting' is to teach yourself to not do bad things in future. If you're not using it as a self-help session then you're basically just crying to your imaginary friend.

The ironic thing is that the atheist understands Christian virtue better than the supposed Catholic.

I've posted your response to demonstrate that this is not, in fact true. Redemption has a purpose in that we benefit from a closer relationship to God, which sin afflicts. Two, we place our salvation at risk with mortal sin.

Sure, you might believe that you understand things, but it's painfully obvious to us that you don't.

[Ben Kenobi]

Becoming more tolerant is only part of modernization though, they need to change how they engage with their congregations. We're a society with so much going on around us, that the long preachy sermons really don't hold people in the way they used to. A lot of churches seem to be doing very well though by turning towards music and discussion rather than just sermons and dull hymns.

Ooh. Why don't we have rock concerts for Jesus! I bet all the hip people will attend.

[kentonio]

Ooh. Why don't we have rock concerts for Jesus! I bet all the hip people will attend.

Christian rock acts have helped a number of churches with retention. How surprising that young people might find the christian teachings expressed in song more appealing than an old man mumbling in occasional latin for two hours.

People respond, ultimately, to truth. Homosexuality is sinful. Nothing gay people do will change this. Ever. They even know this, which is why Jesus offers them healing. They can choose to reject him and carry on, or accept him and repent.

Gay people are born that way. By telling them they are intrinsically bad because they cannot feel any way other than they feel, you're no better than a psychological torturer. You sit there smirking while people suffer and maintain your smug self satisfaction while children kill themselves across the nation because their families have been taught by the church that they are an abomination against god. You are basically scum.

[kentonio]

*edit*

[Elok]

Becoming more tolerant is only part of modernization though, they need to change how they engage with their congregations. We're a society with so much going on around us, that the long preachy sermons really don't hold people in the way they used to. A lot of churches seem to be doing very well though by turning towards music and discussion rather than just sermons and dull hymns.

The same denominations in the US have tried that, too. The problem is, it's easy to go from trying to engage the culture to turning into a silly, irrelevant echo of its values and trappings. If, for whatever reason, a poll next Monday revealed that the majority of Americans thought incest was cool, by Wednesday evening prominent mainline seminarians would be prepping papers on "Images of the sacramental in brother-sister coitus." And they'd still lose members.

I'd go into more detail, maybe be less of a flippant ass, but I'm beat and the wife has a migraine. Hopefully I'll get around to a more intelligent reply tomorrow.

[kentonio]

Oh what perfect timing..

Pope: 'God Is Not Afraid Of New Things'

(Reuters) - Pope Francis has closed an assembly of Catholic bishops that revealed deep divisions on how to respond to homosexuality and divorce, saying on Sunday the Church should not be afraid of change and new challenges.

Francis, who has said he wants a more merciful and less rigid Church, made his comments in a sermon to some 70,000 people in St. Peter's Square for the ceremonial closing of a two-week assembly, known as a synod.

The working session of the gathering ended on Saturday night with a final document that reversed a historic acceptance of gays by the Church made just a week earlier -- a result some progressives see as a setback for Francis.

"God is not afraid of new things. That is why he is continuously surprising us, opening our hearts and guiding us in unexpected ways," the pope said.

At the Mass, he beatified Pope Paul VI, who died in 1978, bringing the pontiff best known for concluding the ground-breaking reforms of the Second Vatican Council and enshrining the Church's ban on contraception a step closer to sainthood.

After an initial draft of the synod's final document was released on Monday, conservative bishops vowed to row back on the upbeat tone adopted regarding gays, cohabitation and re-marriage, saying it would create confusion among the faithful and threatened to undermine the traditional family.

Francis dedicated most of his sermon to the synod, which tackled themes such as homosexuality, divorce, re-marriage, and same-sex couples ahead of a definitive gathering next October after more discussions at a local level around the world.

He said the Church had "to respond courageously to whatever new challenges come our way". He spoke about courage a day after telling the bishops at their last working session to beware both "hostile rigidity" by doctrinal conservatives as well as "destructive good will" by those seeking change at any cost.

BOTCHED ARTICLES

Francis called the synod, where some 200 bishops had heated debates on issues of sexual morality, "a great experience" because participants were able to speak "in true freedom and humble creativity".

Now, he said, "the Church is called to waste no time in seeking to bind up open wounds and to rekindle hope in so many people who have lost hope".

The pope, who urged the bishops to speak their minds frankly at the start of the meeting, told them on Saturday night that he would have been "worried and saddened" if there had not been such honest discussion during the gathering.

Voting tallies released by the Vatican showed that three controversial articles, including the final version of one concerning gays, won an absolute majority but failed to get the two-thirds vote needed for a broad consensus.

But the pope decided to keep even the botched articles, which would have been deleted under normal synod rules, in the final document, meaning the themes will be discussed locally ahead of next year's assembly.

Experts pointed to the long-term results of Francis' new style for such assemblies, which in the past did not take place in two stages and did not allow for wider debate at the local level among the faithful.

"By changing the synod methodology and making sure the assembly’s candid, sometimes contentious discussion was heard around the world, the pope showed he was not afraid of real debate," said John Thavis, author of the bestselling 2013 book "The Vatican Diaries".

"Pope Francis clearly placed the Church on a new path, toward an evangelizing style that is less focused on doctrine and more willing to invite people in, no matter what their status," Thavis wrote in his blog.

Former Pope Benedict XVI attended Sunday's Mass, making only his fourth public appearance at a major Church event since his resignation in March, 2013.

[Berzerker]

As far as Jesus is concerned, hatred for others is a much bigger sin than homosexuality. The Pope understands this.

Jesus didn't say homosexuality was a sin - and he could have if thats what he believed, but he did compare hatred to murder

[Kidlicious]

Questioned answered.

You are as dumb as a bag of rocks.

[Kidlicious]

And condemning someone to hell by teaching error is even worse still.

Teaching that homosexuality is not a sin is not condemning people to hell. If you don't realize that there are errors in every sermon you hear there is something wrong with you. The Pope can't condemn you to hell.

[Kidlicious]

What you aren't getting is that everyone is a sinner. He wants the Church to welcome sinners so that they can repent.



If they repent, I have no issue with them. The key point is repentence - to turn AWAY from their sins. I don't see why their sins should be different from everyone elses.



I care about those who are willfully misrepresenting the pope. It seems to matter very little what the Pope actually says is not what you claim he says.

Actual repenting is unfashionable. Loving people is fashionable, that is, so long as it doesn't involve repenting.

[Ben Kenobi]

Jesus didn't say homosexuality was a sin

Jesus argues that marriage is defined by conjugality between a man and a woman.

MT 19:2-8

When Jesus had finished saying these things, he left Galilee and went into the region of Judea to the other side of the Jordan. Large crowds followed him, and he healed them there.

Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?”

“Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’ and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’? So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”

[Ben Kenobi]

Teaching that homosexuality is not a sin is not condemning people to hell.

Yes, yes it is. People go to hell not realizing they have sinned. This is why teaching error is bad and something that Jesus condemns.

If you don't realize that there are errors in every sermon you hear there is something wrong with you. The Pope can't condemn you to hell.

A sermon should be free of error. A sermon with serious scriptural error to this level can, in fact, condemn people to hell. It must be right - the first time.

[kentonio]

Yes, yes it is. People go to hell not realizing they have sinned.

How the **** could people be sent to hell for something they didn't even know was wrong? What kind of sick perversion is it that you worship exactly?

[Ben Kenobi]

Christian rock acts have helped a number of churches with retention. How surprising that young people might find the christian teachings expressed in song more appealing than an old man mumbling in occasional latin for two hours.

How would you know, you've never been to mass.

Gay people are born that way.

It is not fixed. That is my point. People can change and leave their sins behind.

By telling them they are intrinsically bad

Your logic goes like this:

1. Gay people are born gay
2. Traits we inherit are an intrinsic part of whom you are ergo

3. We must accept homosexuality as it is an intrinsic part of a person.


I challenge both premise 1 and premise 2. Premise 2 - argues that such characteristics can be overcome. There are in fact, examples of healing in which physical deformities are healed. You wouldn't consider the deformity to be a core part of the person, the same works with homosexuality.

This is why it's not intrinsic, it can be changed.

because they cannot feel any way other than they feel

So? An alcoholic knows that when they drink they become addicted. That doesn't mean they cannot achieve sobriety. Same here.

, you're no better than a psychological torturer.

How? I'm arguing that if people have a voluntary desire to leave their sins that this can be achieved. Including homosexuality.

You sit there smirking while people suffer and maintain your smug self satisfaction while children kill themselves across the nation because their families have been taught by the church that they are an abomination against god.

If I believed as you did, yes it would be wrong. But I do not believe that a person's homosexual desires are an intrinsic part of who they are. Ergo, I believe they can change their desires and still remain who they are as a person.

You are basically scum

Glad we're finally dispensing with the irrelevant smokescreens and dealing with core issues, finally.

[Ben Kenobi]

How the **** could people be sent to hell for something they didn't even know was wrong? What kind of sick perversion is it that you worship exactly?

This is a consequence of telling people that sin isn't sin. People believe you, go on committing sin and then end up condemned in hell. This is a biblical teaching, btw. Against false teachers.