Pope sends direct message to Ben

[Ben Kenobi]

The only one here arguing against the pope is you

Once again the person who isn't Catholic is asserting magisterial authority in interpreting the pope.

What's next, Bishop Kentonio? Where's your mitre?

When are you going to stop pretending to be a Catholic?

Bishop Kentonio, unlike you I was confirmed. If you don't believe it you're welcome to call up the parish in Kitsilano, or talk to the bishop, now archbishop in Winnipeg.

[kentonio]

Being confirmed doesnt mean anything if you're then going to hold yourself above gods will. Your hubris is outstanding, and the key Christian virtue of humility seems to have completely escaped you. Whereas Jesus taught that the proper place of a servant of god was washing the feet of the unclean and lending help to those who seemingly deserve none, you seem to have translated that into 'People should obey the bible or they can **** off'.

You are a glowing example of why people turn against the church in ever increasing numbers. I can only assume you're a troll not a genuine believer because no-one could unknowingly harm their own faith as much as you do.

[Elok]

IIUC, Ex Cathedra means the Pope has made a formal statement, then had it approved by the College of Cardinals. I could be wrong, but I don't believe the RCC thinks he can say any fool thing he wants, all by itself, and have it become permanent and incontrovertible Catholic doctrine. The implications of such a policy for the drunken Borgia popes would be staggering. There'd be a couple of hundred lines in the Canon about the asses of fifteenth-century Italian whores, a bit about the Palm Sunday donkey being the fourth member of the Trinity, etc. Also, I think the doctrine of infallibility has been invoked exactly once, when they were pushing the Immaculate Deception.

In any case, if the Pope is pushing for a change but the majority of his bishops reject it, you can at least argue that a good Catholic would hesitate to take the Pope's word on it right away before the dust settles. Especially when what the Pope advocates is a clear departure from established precedent. And if BK is wrong for rejecting Francis's arguments here, then surely the millions of Catholics who ignore RCC teachings on contraception, divorce etc. are still more guilty?

I say this as someone who thinks the RCC teaching on divorce is absurd, and usually has no objection to excoriating BK.

[Ben Kenobi]

In any case, if the Pope is pushing for a change

There's not even evidence for this statement. The Pope called a synod on the family. This was just one issue out of about 250 that came up. Arguing that, "the pope wanted to change but the bishops wouldn't let him", doesn't even pass muster.

As the Pope said, he called for a discussion and got exactly what he wanted. Re-affirmation of Catholic doctrine.

And if BK is wrong for rejecting Francis's arguments

I'm not rejecting Francis' argument. That's my point. Francis has never said anything of the sort that Kentonio is claiming he said.

[Ben Kenobi]

Being confirmed doesnt mean anything if you're then going to hold yourself above gods will.

The bible is extremely clear. Homosexuality is sinful. I knew this before I became Catholic and I continue to believe this now that I am Catholic. The Catechism is perfectly clear that homosexuality is sinful.

I am being obedient to Catholic doctrine and the Church by affirming what the Catholic church actually teaches on homosexuality. It's sinful. Can you be forgiven if you repent of homosexuality? Absolutely.

I'm firmly on the side of the Church here.

Whereas Jesus taught that the proper place of a servant of god was washing the feet of the unclean

Sure. He also said, "Go and sin no more". Did you forget that? Or does the Kentonio edition of the bible omit that passage?

'People should obey the bible or they can **** off'.

Question - do you see repentence as a bad thing?

You are a glowing example of why people turn against the church in ever increasing numbers. I can only assume you're a troll not a genuine believerbecause no-one could unknowingly harm their own faith as much as you do.

Where does the atheist get off deciding who is and isn't Christian?

[ZEE]

I'm only Putting a Poast in this thrade so I cKan have the toP 5 Poasts in the forum.

[kentonio]

I say this as someone who thinks the RCC teaching on divorce is absurd, and usually has no objection to excoriating BK.

The pope is clearly trying to move the church away from its dessicated shell of intolerance that leads to normal people feeling utterly detached from it. Ironically the best way to do that appears to be to become more faithful to it's roots and to move away from the corruption that has plagued the church for pretty much two thousand years. Can anyone (other than Ben) really argue that the Vatican has become anything other than a parody of Christian teaching, with it's bank and golden throne and focus on dogma over actual virtue?

The reason even atheist heathens like me are started to feel fondly towards the new pope is the same reason I used to feel fondly towards the CoE vicars over here growing up. He genuinely feels like a humble Christian man who cares more about the poor and needy than he does about the exact wording of some scroll from a thousand years ago. If he succeeds in moving the establishment in that direction then the church has a future, if he fails then it could spell the beginning of the end for Catholicism in the west.

[Elok]

The thing is, plenty of denominations in the US have done what you described. They're all hemorrhaging membership, far faster than traditionalists. The Lutheran church my mom attended as a little girl recently shut down for lack of members to support it. It's not the first, and it won't be the last.

[Ben Kenobi]

The pope is clearly trying to move the church away from its dessicated shell of intolerance

So says who? Bishop Kentonio?

Can anyone (other than Ben) really argue that the Vatican has become anything other than a parody of Christian teaching, with it's bank and golden throne and focus on dogma over actual virtue?

How would you define 'Christian' teaching?

The reason even atheist heathens like me are started to feel fondly towards the new pope is the same reason I used to feel fondly towards the CoE vicars over here growing up

So what changed? The COE vicars changed their doctrine to suit you.

if he fails then it could spell the beginning of the end for Catholicism in the west.

Yeah, the Church is failing when atheists are unhappy with her direction. Sure, Bishop Kentonio, sure.

[Elok]

Also, I suspect Francis is pulling an extended Obama, presenting an image of liberalism far in excess of his actual substantial policies (or his capacity to implement same). It's working a lot longer for him because the symbolic aspects of his office are far weightier for him than they are for the POTUS.

[Ben Kenobi]

They're all hemorrhaging membership, far faster than traditionalists

I find it curious that despite the COE moving towards Kentonio that he doesn't like them anymore.

[kentonio]

The bible is extremely clear. Homosexuality is sinful. I knew this before I became Catholic and I continue to believe this now that I am Catholic. The Catechism is perfectly clear that homosexuality is sinful.

Anyone who genuinely thinks that the best way to bring gays into god's embrace is to ostracisize them and make them feel unwelcome is a ****ing moron quite frankly. I'm quite willing to accept that your ridiculous church could and has believed such an idiotic and counterproductive thing, because to be frank there isn't enough paper in the world to list all the stupid **** the Catholic church has believed over the years. Luckily for you (although you don't seem to realize it yet) Pope Francis is wiser than that.

I am being obedient to Catholic doctrine and the Church by affirming what the Catholic church actually teaches on homosexuality. It's sinful. Can you be forgiven if you repent of homosexuality? Absolutely.

I'm firmly on the side of the Church here.

Here's the thing, you don't get new people coming to god by standing with your back to them telling them they aren't good enough. If part of your role as a Christian is to encourage others to be saved, then you're massively failing at that job. In fact you're actually doing worse than failing, because your hate speech is actively turning people away from the church. Then again from my point of view that's actually a win, so please never change.

Question - do you see repentence as a bad thing?

It's meaningless in the sense that you mean. If you do something bad, the only point in 'repenting' is to teach yourself to not do bad things in future. If you're not using it as a self-help session then you're basically just crying to your imaginary friend.

Where does the atheist get off deciding who is and isn't Christian?

The ironic thing is that the atheist understands Christian virtue better than the supposed Catholic.

[Ben Kenobi]

It's working a lot longer for him because the symbolic aspects of his office are far weightier for him than they are for the POTUS.

It's like Fox Mulder on X-Files. They want to believe. So long as they can convince themselves that this pope is really going to change the church to suit them, they can continue believing in Francis. Delusion is a powerful thing.

[kentonio]

The thing is, plenty of denominations in the US have done what you described. They're all hemorrhaging membership, far faster than traditionalists. The Lutheran church my mom attended as a little girl recently shut down for lack of members to support it. It's not the first, and it won't be the last.

Becoming more tolerant is only part of modernization though, they need to change how they engage with their congregations. We're a society with so much going on around us, that the long preachy sermons really don't hold people in the way they used to. A lot of churches seem to be doing very well though by turning towards music and discussion rather than just sermons and dull hymns.

[kentonio]

Also, I suspect Francis is pulling an extended Obama, presenting an image of liberalism far in excess of his actual substantial policies (or his capacity to implement same). It's working a lot longer for him because the symbolic aspects of his office are far weightier for him than they are for the POTUS.

Yeah probably, but it's working because even people like me who loathe the Catholic church have warmed to him.