Dead body paraded around in Britain

[Uncle Sparky]

I'm a humanist, but Bosco did all that he could, defying convention of the time, to help the urban poor, especially children. Saint? I don't really care about his 'miracle' dream of floating over Boston, but he was a hero and inspiration who should be honoured.

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

And now he's still defying conventions of the time by being paraded around like a zombie with a stylist. However he'll no longer be helping kids- he'll be giving them nightmares.

Time for a quietly respectful burial, perhaps?

[Elok]

Wait, is it the same Don Bosco who started this:

http://www.artesanosdonbosco.com/ ?

If so, he's awesome. We ran into these guys at Lima's art museum, and they do incredible work.

[Uncle Sparky]

A large part of the mandate of the Order Bosco founded was to give the poor the skills to help themselves, so the Lima project would fit the profile.

[Alexander's Horse]

His followers founded Boystown.

[Dr Strangelove]

Well, that's right off the bat, wrong. Elizabeth was the sovereign over her subject. France had their King. Was the pope ever sovereign over this part of France? No. So right off the bat you'd applied responsibility to the wrong person. Two, one million? Really? Nonsense. A few thousand, maybe.

Historians say millions were killed. The Abbott Arnaurd Amaury was appointed by the Pope to command the cursade, so yeah, the Roman church is responsible . They even rewarded him by making him an archbishop. He was also the first Inquisitor.

The Order were actually invited by the Poles and Germans to help them defend themselves from Pagans in northern Prussia. They became a successful religious order by attracting knights to defeat them and push them back. This 'prevent from procreation' nonsense is just the usual ahistorical bigotry. Next you'll be saying that they collected hordes of evil-Jew gold. Last I checked - they were defeated by schismatics and ex-pagans. I don't really see how the Knights were all that different from the Livonian Brothers of the Sword, or from the Hospitaliers. The thing that made them important in medieval times is that these were all investment houses - they had considerable support in Germany and throughout the Christian world.

The enslavement of the Prussians and the banning of procreation is a well established historical fact. The Order moved in to Prussia in 1226, the last resistance from the Prussians was ove by 1270. For the next two and a half centuries the Order focused it's efforts against the Poles, Lithuanians and Novgorod even though the Poles had been Roman Catholics all along and the Lithuanians converted in the 14th century. I won't bother arguing the morality of attacking the Orthodox Novgorodians with you since your ideal odf christianity is roughly similar to Osama Bin Laden's ideal of Islam.

They started in Poland!

Was Prussia Polish in 1222? Did the Polish ask the Teutoniuc Knights to crusade against them?

Right, and that Jogialia fellow was a right and just libertine who courted Paris. Oh wait, no he wasn't. History is funny when written to paint the Church in the worst light possible. It glosses over the saintliness of her foes while treating every accusation as fact.

Jugllia was baptised in Poland in 1386. The war against him continued for decades.

You don't say.

.

For which the Catholics are to blame no doubt for the entire thing. I see. So in every religious conflict, Catholics are responsible for 100 percent, and everyone else gets off scot free. Protestants executed Catholics, Protestants stripped the church of her property, protestants persecuted Catholics wherever they were in power. That was the trigger of the 30 years war - their attempt to impose the same 'justice' across the Empire as they had in England and in scandinavia. Which is why Westphalia was founded on the principle that there had to be a system of religious accord and agreement because the system previous wasn't working. At. All.

Was there persecution of Catholics in Bohemia in 1618? The provoking incidents weren't the Protestant seizure of Roman Catholic churches, but instead the Roman Catholic seizure of Protestant churches. The people resisted, the Hapsburg military moved in and killed millions.

The result of that was sad, really. The Church kept to her side of that - but nobody else did. See the French Revolution, etc.

Ummm..... I don't see the relationship between the Anglicanism and the French Revolution. Please, enlighten me.[quote}

Interesting how you get that number by tacking on 100 percent blame to the Catholics for the 30 years war. [/QUOTE]No I get it via the bloodthirsty nature of conservative pro-Roman Catholic forces of that era. Face it, by the era of the Reformation the Roman church had already earned a well-deserved reputation for ruthless brutality in dealing with dissent. It's no wonder that the Protestants were so defensive. A modern analogy might be the Israelis defending themselves againat the overwhelming numbers of the Arab alliance in 1968. The difference would be that the Protestants took massive casualties whereas the Israelis brushed off the Arab nations like they were flies.

[Kidlicious]

I wonder how much longer it will be before it's socially acceptable to whitewash the Holocaust.

[Dinner]

I'm sure Ben is working on it.

[Nikolai]

I wonder how much longer it will be before it's socially acceptable to whitewash the Holocaust.

In Norway a holocaust denier and writer was invited to speak in a litterary festival. Big uproar, not everybody understood the fuzz.

[Alexander's Horse]

Ben and Doc refighting the reformation? let me know if the outcome is different this time.

[Dr Strangelove]

Ben and Doc refighting the reformation? let me know if the outcome is different this time.

No need for a different outcome. Progress will continue and eventually democracy will triumph. Thank God for the Reformation. Can anyone here imagine living in a world ruled by divine right monarchs?

[Ben Kenobi]

Progress will continue and eventually democracy will triumph. Thank God for the Reformation. Can anyone here imagine living in a world ruled by divine right monarchs?

Like Henry VIII? Charles IX of Sweden? Etc. Absolutism wasn't confined to Catholics.

[BlackCat]

Like Henry VIII? Charles IX of Sweden? Etc. Absolutism wasn't confined to Catholics.

Quite rigth, but where did they learn it ? Anyway, if the pope was asked, he'd probably prefer absolutism over democracy

[Ben Kenobi]

Historians say millions were killed

Who claims this?

The Abbott Arnaurd Amaury was appointed by the Pope to command the cursade

Well, sure, it's a sin to hold the Lord's name in vain, but I think a cursade is going a little beyond the pale.

, so yeah, the Roman church is responsible

We're talking subjects of the King of France. You stated that these were subjects of the Pope, and now you're backtracking to say that there was a Papal commander. If that's the case, than Charles IX of Sweden is responsible for every death of the Thirty Years War by the same argument.

They even rewarded him by making him an archbishop. He was also the first Inquisitor.

Umm? According to whom?

The enslavement of the Prussians and the banning of procreation is a well established historical fact.

Again, by whom? They were invited to Translyvania first, and then were expelled. Then the Poles invited them to go to Poland and help them defend the Polish state. That's how they ended up in Kulmerland. They went there by invitation of the powers of the area to protect them from the Pagans. You seem to assume that the Pagans were entirely peaceful. They were not. They warred against the Catholics all throughout this period. The Knights were deployed and invited in response to these attacks.

As for the 'preventation of procreation', you'll have to provide a source for that. Ahistorical nonsense.

For the next two and a half centuries the Order focused it's efforts against the Poles, Lithuanians and Novgorod even though the Poles had been Roman Catholics all along and the Lithuanians converted in the 14th century.

Umm, no. They inherited Livonia from the Brothers, and fought against Novgorod (who were most decidedly NOT Catholic), and against the Lithuanians. Lithuania stood directly in the crux between Livonia and Prussia, which is why they fought the Lithuanians. Than the Poles and Lithuanians allied to take on the Knights. The Knights lost and were incorporated into Poland until they were freed again when Brandenburg inherited it and took it all over.

I won't bother arguing the morality of attacking the Orthodox Novgorodians with you since your ideal odf christianity is roughly similar to Osama Bin Laden's ideal of Islam.

Schismatics are schismatics. They actually didn't do much after Priepus.

Was Prussia Polish in 1222?

Was Kulmerland Polish?

Did the Polish ask the Teutoniuc Knights to crusade against them?

They invited the Knights to crusade against the Pagans in Prussia and to help protect them from the Pagans.

Jugllia was baptised in Poland in 1386. The war against him continued for decades.

Why would the Knights declare war against Poland and Lithuania? No, quite the opposite. Poland saw an opportunity, allied with Lithuania, brought them into the fold and went to war with the Knights.

Was there persecution of Catholics in Bohemia in 1618?

Was there persecution of Catholics in England in 1570? Absolutely. Munster? Yes. Scandinavia, right again. The protestants wanted to convert the empire, and the trigger was Koln, and their attempt to gain 50+1 percent of the electorate. That - didn't happen, but it devastated the Empire with all of Europe intervening. Westphalia settled this, that the Empire would remain Catholic but the Protestants would remain free to practice.

The provoking incidents weren't the Protestant seizure of Roman Catholic churches, but instead the Roman Catholic seizure of Protestant churches. The people resisted, the Hapsburg military moved in and killed millions.

Wrong again. Look at Koln. Look at what happened when the Elector there tried to cross over.

I don't see the relationship between the Anglicanism and the French Revolution. Please, enlighten me.

Yet you've been ranting on against Absolutism this whole time?

No I get it via the bloodthirsty nature of conservative pro-Roman Catholic forces of that era.

That dog isn't going to hunt. Ascribing 100 percent blame to the Catholics (and including Catholics killed in the conflict), is just plain wrong.

Face it, by the era of the Reformation the Roman church had already earned a well-deserved reputation

From whom? The Tudors? It's amazing how much the protestant atrocities have been whitewashed.

[Ben Kenobi]

Quite rigth, but where did they learn it ? Anyway, if the pope was asked, he'd probably prefer absolutism over democracy

So now Charles IX and all protestants are exonerated because it was the 'Catholics who taught them'. I rest my case.