Kansas based Catholic newspaper comes out in supprt of women priests

[Jon Miller]

Huh?

Did you think about your comment?

Mental Problems->Permanent Body Modification = Mutilation
Mentally Healthy->Permanent Body Modification = !Mutilation or Mutilation (depending, but we assume that the person could be reasonable..)

I might think they are strange and and so on, and I might even think of it as mutilation. I know I do about some of the plastic surgery people/etc and many other body modification people/etc.

But the issue is one of support. I don't support people who do body modification (or mutilation) due to being mentally unwell. I might not be a Jew and disagree with circumcision as a requirement of a covenant with God, but I understand that others think so and support their ability to choose to do so. Whether I get convinced by Asher/etc that circumcision is mutilation or not.

I even think that sex change operations should be legal. Mutilation should be legal for those who are adults/etc. But don't ask me to support it or to enable those who are mentally unwell in pursuing self mutilation.

Basically, it should be like plastic surgery (for example, those who think they should be a tiger or have a tail or something).

JM

[Kidlicious]

In kentonio's universe anyone who is religious is crazy by default.

[Jon Miller]

That can't be true, he is very open minded and is very interested in religion.

He can't be disrespectful towards religion and religious people.

JM

[Jon Miller]

That can't be true, he is very open minded and is very interested in religion.

He can't be disrespectful towards religion and religious people.

JM

[kentonio]

Huh?

Did you think about your comment?

Mental Problems->Permanent Body Modification = Mutilation
Mentally Healthy->Permanent Body Modification = !Mutilation or Mutilation (depending, but we assume that the person could be reasonable..)

I think you just can't draw an arbitary line like that, that is based on nothing more than your own personal opinion about the validity of their beliefs. So one group is mentally healthy despite wanting to cut bits of their body off because...? There's lots of them? They've been doing it for longer?

[kentonio]

That can't be true, he is very open minded and is very interested in religion.

He can't be disrespectful towards religion and religious people.

JM

I am very interested in religion, but I don't see what that has to do with respect. If I think parts of different religions are harmful to either society or the individual then I'm not going to pay some craven false respect to the religion as a whole simply to not offend anyone. On the other hand there's various parts of the different religions that seem almost totally beneficial, despite me being unable to buy into any of the supernatural side.

[Jon Miller]

I think you just can't draw an arbitary line like that, that is based on nothing more than your own personal opinion about the validity of their beliefs. So one group is mentally healthy despite wanting to cut bits of their body off because...? There's lots of them? They've been doing it for longer?

If you are trying to judge an action, you have to judge the mental health independent of that action.

JM
(As I said, if you want to be a tranny you can be a tranny, I am just not interested in supporting you.)

[Jon Miller]

I think you just can't draw an arbitary line like that, that is based on nothing more than your own personal opinion about the validity of their beliefs. So one group is mentally healthy despite wanting to cut bits of their body off because...? There's lots of them? They've been doing it for longer?

If you are trying to judge an action, you have to judge the mental health independent of that action.

JM
(As I said, if you want to be a tranny you can be a tranny, I am just not interested in supporting you.)

[kentonio]

If you are trying to judge an action, you have to judge the mental health independent of that action.

So if I shoot a random person in the face but I'm mentally fine, that should be ok?

[Jon Miller]

How is this at all relevant? We are not talking about doing things to other people...

I said it might still be mutilation.

As it is, yes... if you shoot someone in the face then I will look at your reasons. If you are insane I will say 'you are insane, I do not support you shooting someone in the face'. If you are sane, then your reasons will matter. If it is 'I don't like how he looked at me' I will say 'your shooting of someone in the face shows that you are insane, how did we not catch that before? I do not support you.'. If it is 'he was going to take my car' I will say 'The car isn't so valuable, you are sane but I don't support you'. If it is 'I saw him about to shoot my friends mother' then I will say 'OK, you should talk to someone, I support you'.

JM

[Jon Miller]

How is this at all relevant? We are not talking about doing things to other people...

I said it might still be mutilation.

As it is, yes... if you shoot someone in the face then I will look at your reasons. If you are insane I will say 'you are insane, I do not support you shooting someone in the face'. If you are sane, then your reasons will matter. If it is 'I don't like how he looked at me' I will say 'your shooting of someone in the face shows that you are insane, how did we not catch that before? I do not support you.'. If it is 'he was going to take my car' I will say 'The car isn't so valuable, you are sane but I don't support you'. If it is 'I saw him about to shoot my friends mother' then I will say 'OK, you should talk to someone, I support you'.

JM

[kentonio]

How is this at all relevant? We are not talking about doing things to other people...

Of course it's relevant, you're judging someones mental health by little more than your own personal beliefs and then seperating off their actions from that. The moment you said that circumcision would be mutilation 'if you are not a Jew/etc' you undermined your argument completely.

[snoopy369]

The correct word is 'metaphysical', not 'supernatural'. Religious people don't think God is supernatural, they think he is rather the definition of natural...

[The Mad Monk]

Revival? You mean y'all went without deacons for a while? I never knew that.

(Divine Liturgy at my church is two hours on average, and that's not especially long by our standards)

EDIT: Asked my wife, who has a Catholic background. She says Catholic deacons are a lot less prominent than Orthodox ones. Ours typically do half the work of a service for the priest, but she says the RCC ones don't have a clear liturgical role and are mostly responsible for addressing parish needs. Sort of a secretarial position?

Local church organization for the RCA (Reformed Church of America, aka Dutch Reformed) has Deacons, Elders and the Pastor together as a board. Most decisions are handled by the full board with the Pastor serving as chair, but certain actions, including nominating new board members, discipline, and hiring / removing the Pastor, are strictly the province of the Elders.

[Jon Miller]

Of course it's relevant, you're judging someones mental health by little more than your own personal beliefs and then seperating off their actions from that. The moment you said that circumcision would be mutilation 'if you are not a Jew/etc' you undermined your argument completely.

No.

You demonstrate a problem with reading comprehension.

Let me repeat:

If you are trying to judge an action, you have to judge the mental health independent of that action.

JM