Kansas based Catholic newspaper comes out in supprt of women priests

[Jon Miller]

Otherwise you are just going in circles.

Not very reasonable behavior.

JM

[MikeH]

The correct word is 'metaphysical', not 'supernatural'. Religious people don't think God is supernatural, they think he is rather the definition of natural...

Nope. You are wrong. Super natural etymology is from Above Nature and includes Gods.

eg.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/supernatural

su·per·nat·u·ral (spr-nchr-l)
adj.
1. Of or relating to existence outside the natural world.
2. Attributed to a power that seems to violate or go beyond natural forces.
3. Of or relating to a deity.
4. Of or relating to the immediate exercise of divine power; miraculous.
5. Of or relating to the miraculous.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/supernatural

Definition of SUPERNATURAL

1
: of or relating to an order of existence beyond the visible observable universe; especially : of or relating to God or a god, demigod, spirit, or devil


etc. etc. etc.

[Jon Miller]

Local church organization for the RCA (Reformed Church of America, aka Dutch Reformed) has Deacons, Elders and the Pastor together as a board. Most decisions are handled by the full board with the Pastor serving as chair, but certain actions, including nominating new board members, discipline, and hiring / removing the Pastor, are strictly the province of the Elders.

SDA is a bit similar.

A church creates a committee which nominates the nominating committee (usually from former leadership, pastor/elders/deacons/etc).

The nominating committee nominates individuals for church leadership positions. There are few considerations in the case of deacons/etc, but more in the case of elders. The elders and the pastor really run the church. The members vote on the people who are nominated. Generally only one person is nominated and they are voted in (although I assume that some times there has been conflict).

The pastor is selected by the conference, generally following the requests of the Elders (although not always).

Once every certain number of years, there is a general conference meeting. People from every church get selected to go to the conference and select representatives to go to the general conference. The general conference determines overall church leadership and the general conference and conference determines conference leadership.

I think SDAs have more organization than many protestants.

JM

[Jon Miller]

Nope. You are wrong. Super natural etymology is from Above Nature and includes Gods.

eg.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/supernatural

su·per·nat·u·ral (spr-nchr-l)
adj.
1. Of or relating to existence outside the natural world.
2. Attributed to a power that seems to violate or go beyond natural forces.
3. Of or relating to a deity.
4. Of or relating to the immediate exercise of divine power; miraculous.
5. Of or relating to the miraculous.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/supernatural

Definition of SUPERNATURAL

1
: of or relating to an order of existence beyond the visible observable universe; especially : of or relating to God or a god, demigod, spirit, or devil


etc. etc. etc.

I have explained that if I found out that I could discover prayerons and that from these prayerons there had been beings that interact on earth and caused the events in the Bible/etc... I wouldn't say that I had discovered God. Rather, that I had discovered aliens who might (or probably, depending on what I find out) being doing God's will.

JM

[Jon Miller]

That being said, I wouldn't be surprised because I am still very much a materialist. God is God, and creation is Material.

JM

[MikeH]

Doesn't matter either way, the definition of the word is clear.

[snoopy369]

Regardless of Merriam-Webster, I still hold that most religous-types would disagree with the usage 'supernatural' there. Not only is God the creator of 'Nature', thus by definition natural, 'supernatural' is often used as a way to insult the religious beliefs. Metaphysical is a much more appropriate word (and more commonly used in that sense).

[kentonio]

No.

You demonstrate a problem with reading comprehension.

Let me repeat:

If you are trying to judge an action, you have to judge the mental health independent of that action.

As you choose to consider religion an automatically sane reason for people mutilating themselves, sorry but you're proving yourself a terrible judge of other peoples motivations. You call it mutilation when someone is suffering feeling they are in the wrong gender body and takes steps to rectify that to improve their happiness in life, but if someone cuts off part of a babys penis because it says in a book that god wants them too, that's apparently fine?

[notyoueither]

Huh?

Did you think about your comment?

Mental Problems->Permanent Body Modification = Mutilation
Mentally Healthy->Permanent Body Modification = !Mutilation or Mutilation (depending, but we assume that the person could be reasonable..)

I might think they are strange and and so on, and I might even think of it as mutilation. I know I do about some of the plastic surgery people/etc and many other body modification people/etc.

But the issue is one of support. I don't support people who do body modification (or mutilation) due to being mentally unwell. I might not be a Jew and disagree with circumcision as a requirement of a covenant with God, but I understand that others think so and support their ability to choose to do so. Whether I get convinced by Asher/etc that circumcision is mutilation or not.

I even think that sex change operations should be legal. Mutilation should be legal for those who are adults/etc. But don't ask me to support it or to enable those who are mentally unwell in pursuing self mutilation.

Basically, it should be like plastic surgery (for example, those who think they should be a tiger or have a tail or something).

JM

I have all sorts of problems with your POV, and some others posted in this thread. I hope I can explain based on my limited understanding.

To begin with, gender dysphoria is not / should not be considered a mental 'illness.' It is a state where a person is uncomfortable (and could become unwell) being treated by society as a member of the gender that the person appears on the outside to be.

The body may say man, but the mind says woman. This is recognised by mental health professionals as a state that deserves and may require action to remedy. A widely prescribed action is sex change and possibly gender reassignment surgery. I am unaware of attempts to 'reprogramme' the mind being widely accepted today (although no doubt there may be some who try to do so). It would be akin to trying to 'cure' gay people. They are indeed born that way.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity_disorder

Recent medical research on the brain structures of transgender individuals have shown that some transgender individuals have the physical brain structures that resemble their desired sex even before hormone treatment.[7][8] In addition, recent studies are indicating more possible causes for gender dysphoria, stemming from genetic reasons and prenatal exposure to hormones, as well as other psychological and behavioral reasons.

Why is this important, and why should it be to you too? Because the situation transexuals find themselves in in society. A person born male undergoes a sex change. As a person presenting to society as a woman, which bathroom in an airport should the person use? Should the person be protected from discrimination in employment, property rental, and other important aspects of life? From the attitudes expressed in this thread I'd have to say yes, emphatically.

Also, to be as successful as possible, the change should be begun pre-puberty. This is so that the body develops as best as possible as the gender that will be best for the persons mental health. Men who change go through a particular form of hell in society when they cannot 'pass.' Their features are too male. They are marginalised and sometimes victimised by people who hold views consistent with some found in this thread.

In short, this is an important human rights issue.

[Jon Miller]

A body (Reality) that says one thing and a mind that says another in every other case is the sign of mental illness.

Sorry, the 'medical professionals' are being foolish here, probably due to their biases.

JM

[MrFun]

Basically, it should be like plastic surgery (for example, those who think they should be a tiger or have a tail or something).

JM

Using an example like this as being equal to someone who is transsexual speaks volumes of your ignorance on this topic.

[Jon Miller]

One man thinks he is a tiger, one man thinks that he has a vagina/ovaries/etc.

Note that I don't think it is a(n obvious) sign of mental illness for a man thinking he should wear dresses, take care of the children, or whatever other 'gender' activity he desires to do.

JM

[notyoueither]

As for the trannies, they squick me out and I do believe that hating your own flesh that way warrants the name "sickness"; however, since there's no cure for it, it seems kindest to let them self-mutilate.

Why should this squick you out? I presume you are not squicked out by gay men based on thoughts about what they do together in a bedroom.

I don't know if it's hating their own flesh so much as hating how society treats them based on some bits they have due to chromosomes and sometimes a doctor's decision (there are people who are androgynous at birth and are uncomfortable with decisions made for them while an infant).

Yes, some of them wish to be capable of a sex life as the gender they prefer to be. They would undergo sex reassignment surgery. I've read that some women are orgasmic after successful surgery. Others are happy with results after hormone therapy and never undergo SRS. What's wrong with that and why would you care any more than you care about what gay men do with each other?

[MrFun]

Sometime in the future, those who believe that transsexuals are mentally ill will be laughed at, just as today, those who believe homosexuals are mentally ill, are laughed at now.

[notyoueither]

A body (Reality) that says one thing and a mind that says another in every other case is the sign of mental illness.

Sorry, the 'medical professionals' are being foolish here, probably due to their biases.

JM

And if their physical brain structure is at odds with their genitalia? What then? Are they mentally ill, or do they have a medically treatable problem with their body?

Sorry, but the medical professionals have likely given these situations a bit more thought than everyone posting in this tread. They are not the ones being foolish, and ignorant for that matter.