Intrade: 70.5% chance Obama will win third debate

[snoopy369]

Nonsense. Men are considered responsible for the child they conceive even if they did not want the child. All that is required is a DNA test to confirm that the child is in fact his. This assumes continuity of the person, and the science is well established. If we can prove the parenthood of the child through their DNA, then we can also state that there is continuity of identity.

Biologically the child outside of the womb is no different from the embryo at 5 weeks. It's the same child.



When you cannot refute them, then yes, I will continue to use them.

You are discussing legal details, not scientific ones. Utterly irrelevant.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Read better next time. Ben said " just the opposite. It compounds her suffering." How would he know? That was the expertise I was questioning.
I didn't claim I knew. If ben limits his crap to moral issues, fine. But when he claims that an abortion automatically compounds her suffering, he's talking out of his ass.

Everything I've read from people who have had an abortion who are pro-choice indicates that having an abortion isn't something without moral consequence but actually does have an emotional impact on the person. So Ben isn't necessarily wrong in that aspect.

(It is usually stated in opposition to folks who claim people just uncaringly have abortions willy-nilly as birth control)

[Ben Kenobi]

If you had said it might compound her suffering, you might have convinced me that you actually had some expertise, but by saying it automatically is the opposite and increases her suffering, tells me your training was flawed and I pity the women you counsel about it. Every person is different. There is not ever one cookie cutter solution.

Would you ever say that a woman who has been raped hasn't suffered?

My experience in working with women who have suffered both from the rape and abortion is that they suffer from both the rape and abortion.

[Ben Kenobi]

You are discussing legal details, not scientific ones. Utterly irrelevant

Do you concede that if we took a tissue sample from the 5 week old embryo and then from the 1 month year old toddler that they would be the same?

[rah]

Everything I've read from people who have had an abortion who are pro-choice indicates that having an abortion isn't something without moral consequence but actually does have an emotional impact on the person. So Ben isn't necessarily wrong in that aspect.

(It is usually stated in opposition to folks who claim people just uncaringly have abortions willy-nilly as birth control)

I notice you had to put a qualification on it 'who are pro-choice'. So even you can't prove it's automatic. People are different.

[Imran Siddiqui]

I notice you had to put a qualification on it 'who are pro-choice'. So even you can't prove it's automatic. People are different.

I put "who are pro-choice" so I wouldn't be accused of just picking out women who are pro-life now. Obviously.

[Asher]

My life isn't normal and never will be. Should I have been aborted?

Do you seriously want to ask this question?

[Asher]

Frankly, no I don't. I've had medical professionals argue that had they had a child like me, they would have aborted the child if they had known early enough.

Why would you assume they're talking about your hearing impairment?

It's far more likely they said that for a plethora of other reasons, including the fact that you are vile.

[rah]

Would you ever say that a woman who has been raped hasn't suffered?

Ignored since it had nothing to do with my comment.

My experience in working with women who have suffered both from the rape and abortion is that they suffer from both the rape and abortion.

You're dealing with a subset of ALL WOMEN. Women that probably have a moral problem with abortions to start with.
A women that doesn't have that moral problem MIGHT not react the same. (you'll notice I used the word might because I'm not an expert)
By saying that ALL women would suffer more, you're just demonstrating that you're not an expert either.

Which makes me not believe that you've actually counseled women that were raped and had abortions. But then I don't believe half the crap you spew. And I'm sure I'm not alone.

[snoopy369]

Everything I've read from people who have had an abortion who are pro-choice indicates that having an abortion isn't something without moral consequence but actually does have an emotional impact on the person. So Ben isn't necessarily wrong in that aspect.

(It is usually stated in opposition to folks who claim people just uncaringly have abortions willy-nilly as birth control)

Ben's not entirely wrong, but not entirely right, either. Just like most difficult moral questions, it varies by the person. If this is the sole argument, then I have a hard time believing anyone should decide for the person in question - some will feel it is better to keep the child ('at least something good came of it','God willed it', whatever reason you like), some will prefer not to, in large part dependent on the mother's personality etc.

Truly I think it is a poor idea for pro-lifers to make arguments like this. The pro life side has one very compelling argument, there is simply no reason to move on to more questionable arguments that don't really convince anyone, and probably actually work against the cause because they CAN be refuted. If you set aside the fact that the baby is a person, there's no reason whatsoever to prevent the raped woman from having an abortion if she feels it's the best thing for her. So don't make the argument - just go back to the fact that the baby is a person, full stop.

[Hauldren Collider]

Yes, but for other reasons.

As tasteless as this is, I laughed

[snoopy369]

Do you concede that if we took a tissue sample from the 5 week old embryo and then from the 1 month year old toddler that they would be the same?

No, they wouldn't be the same, do you know anything about development?

They would contain the same DNA, sure. But they would also contain DNA pretty darn close to that which is in a pig. Biologically speaking, practically the same thing. Why can we kill one and not the other?

[Ben Kenobi]

Answer the question, rah.

Would you ever say that a woman who has been raped hasn't suffered?

[Hauldren Collider]

Did a judge not invalidate the will of the people who approvef of discriminitory laws. Any action of a judge could be construed as legislating

The constitution invalidated the will of the people who approved of discriminatory laws. The constitution itself is undemocratic. We want our undemocratic parts of government to be consistent.

[Ben Kenobi]

They would contain the same DNA

Thank you. So, could we not conclude from this that there is then continuity of existence from the toddler to the embryo, since the DNA is a match?

But they would also contain DNA pretty darn close to that which is in a pig

Do you concede that a geneticist would be able to easily distinguish between the two?