Apostolic Succession

[Kidlicious]

Actually the Pharisees were actually following the rules for the sabbath to the letter. Jesus was pointing out that now we aren't under the Law, but under Grace.

No, your historical knowledge isn't as good as you think it is. But of course you think you know more than me. The Pharisees made up their own rules regarding the Sabbath. They kept adding rules on. For example, that you can't heal on the Sabbath. Jesus once asked, "is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath or not?" Jesus never violated the Sabbath. On the contrary he followed the Sabbath according to God's Law. So did Paul and all the apostles. So did the early church. Not following the Sabbath is a later church tradition.

Erroneously. We shouldn't continue error just because others are doing so.

I'm glad you agree that the church is in error. Now tell me why we should have to follow their tradition.

You have stated you believe in "Good Friday", so therefore what does on the third day he rose again mean to you?

I stated that I worship on Good Friday. I worship on Easter as well. There is a difference between worshipping on those days and believing in them. I believe in Jesus.

Which kind of God? Easter is a foundation of Christian faith.

Like I said, I'm not religious. I have faith in Jesus Christ, not a church.

I know you enjoy Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easter_Sunday

So Easter is a celebration of the Resurrection? Thank you.

[Ben Kenobi]

Funny to hear a protestant arguing that the Bible doesn't change. Kid - have you ever seen a Vulgate?

[Jon Miller]

And Mormon's have an extra book or two in cannon.

Still, Pauline Christians all agree on a certain basis. This basis hasn't changed.

Anyways, I was going to say that I know that some traditions/groups/etc emphasize other things than the Resurrection(including ones which believe in it). I would have expected Imran to have ran into such a group in his liberal Christian experience?

JM

[Kidlicious]

Funny to hear a protestant arguing that the Bible doesn't change. Kid - have you ever seen a Vulgate?

The Vulgate is not the Bible, although is has some of the same writings in it. What I meant, of course, is that the biblical cannon doesn't change.

[Imran Siddiqui]

No, your historical knowledge isn't as good as you think it is. But of course you think you know more than me. The Pharisees made up their own rules regarding the Sabbath. They kept adding rules on. For example, that you can't heal on the Sabbath. Jesus once asked, "is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath or not?" Jesus never violated the Sabbath. On the contrary he followed the Sabbath according to God's Law. So did Paul and all the apostles. So did the early church. Not following the Sabbath is a later church tradition.

... is healing work or not? The Sabbath prevented all work from being done. A doctor who does things to help healing is working if he does so on the Sabbath.

I'm glad you agree that the church is in error. Now tell me why we should have to follow their tradition.

AFAIK, the Catholic Church never claimed the Lord's Day was the Sabbath (nor does the Eastern Orthodox).

In addition, tradition is the collective wisdom of Godly people. Jesus said that whatever we bind on Earth will be bound in Heaven and that He is there when 2 or more are gathered in his name. How did the early church decide thing in Acts? They got together and made a decision. That's how God mostly works in the world - he works through us, when we act as His vessels, and when we come together He joins us.

I stated that I worship on Good Friday. I worship on Easter as well. There is a difference between worshipping on those days and believing in them. I believe in Jesus.

So you don't believe in Good Friday and Easter? You don't believe that Jesus was killed and rose again? What do you think believing in Easter means?

Like I said, I'm not religious. I have faith in Jesus Christ, not a church.

Of course you are. You just follow a different tradition and believe you've come up with it by yourself.

So Easter is a celebration of the Resurrection? Thank you.

Um... duh.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Anyways, I was going to say that I know that some traditions/groups/etc emphasize other things than the Resurrection(including ones which believe in it). I would have expected Imran to have ran into such a group in his liberal Christian experience?

There are, also, Good Friday Christians. People who focus so much on Christ suffering on the cross "for our sins" that Easter gets relegated to the background (or a "see he was dying for your sins").

[Kidlicious]

... is healing work or not? The Sabbath prevented all work from being done. A doctor who does things to help healing is working if he does so on the Sabbath.

No, healing is not prohibited on the Sabbath, not according to Jesus. That's why He healed on the Sabbath, not because He was agaist the Sabbath. You need to read the Bible. Like I said, you are confident in your knowledge, unfortunately you are wrong.

AFAIK, the Catholic Church never claimed the Lord's Day was the Sabbath (nor does the Eastern Orthodox).

The EARLY church observed the Sabbath. The Catholic Church, later said not to observe the Sabbath, but to rest on the Lord's Day. Let this be the end of your semantics.

In addition, tradition is the collective wisdom of Godly people.

No. It has nothing to do with wisdom. It is simply a belief and/or behavior that is practices collectively and/or passed down through the generations.

Jesus said that whatever we bind on Earth will be bound in Heaven and that He is there when 2 or more are gathered in his name.

So you believe that no matter what a christian does that it is God's will so long as 2 or more of them gather together and call themselves christians?

How did the early church decide thing in Acts? They got together and made a decision. That's how God mostly works in the world - he works through us, when we act as His vessels, and when we come together He joins us.

There is a HUGE difference between your church and the early church (disciples and apostles). Your church can not make up traditions that go against biblical teachings and/or what the early church believed and practiced. That's why they are the apostles and disciples of christ and you aren't.

So you don't believe in Good Friday and Easter? You don't believe that Jesus was killed and rose again? What do you think believing in Easter means?



Of course you are. You just follow a different tradition and believe you've come up with it by yourself.



Um... duh.

This is all nonsense and I have no idea what you're trying to do here.

[Imran Siddiqui]

No, healing is not prohibited on the Sabbath, not according to Jesus. That's why He healed on the Sabbath, not because He was agaist the Sabbath. You need to read the Bible. Like I said, you are confident in your knowledge, unfortunately you are wrong.

But according to the Law, it was. Jesus changed how we live. Do you not get that? He said that certain things were placed in the Law because of how we were, but now we can live by the Spirit. Hence, you know, we can eat shellfish, bacon and all that stuff?

If you believe we are still under the Law, you need to read your Paul.

You need to read the Bible more & the history of the Church.

The EARLY church observed the Sabbath. The Catholic Church, later said not to observe the Sabbath, but to rest on the Lord's Day. Let this be the end of your semantics.

The early church was still deciding which Jewish customs it should follow. You remember all those letters Paul was writing to churches deciding whether to circumsize? (Which btw, was part of the Law too).

No. It has nothing to do with wisdom. It is simply a belief and/or behavior that is practices collectively and/or passed down through the generations.

You should read your Proverbs. There is a reason that in a lot of that book it was said that the elders were wise. Their experiences showed them how the world worked. What Tradition is is simply wisdom passed down through the ages, tested along the way. Sometimes it is meant to be held onto and sometimes it isn't, but we all stand on the shoulders of giants of one sort of another. We all follow one tradition or another, whether we acknowledge it or not (ie, the charismatic churches aren't necessarily new, but follow on the teachings of Montanus).

So you believe that no matter what a christian does that it is God's will so long as 2 or more of them gather together and call themselves christians?

There is a HUGE difference between your church and the early church (disciples and apostles). Your church can not make up traditions that go against biblical teachings and/or what the early church believed and practiced. That's why they are the apostles and disciples of christ and you aren't.

Jesus does explicitly say that when 2 or more Christians are gathered, He is there... that is Biblical teaching, right? What does that mean to you? Of course, sometimes people don't discern the will of God all that well or aren't listening fully - hence WHY there is a tradition. To filter out the wrongful beliefs that accumulate sometimes (you know like not believing in Easter is ok for a Christian). It is centuries of Christians gathered together in Christ's name and He is in that Tradition - working through it and redeeming his people in following The Way.

This is all nonsense and I have no idea what you're trying to do here.

Trying to point out that you may call yourself what you wish, but if you don't believe in Easter, you aren't a follower of Christ. If anything, maybe you are a follower of Rabbi Jesus, but Easter fully proclaims Him as the Christ.

[Kidlicious]

But according to the Law, it was. Jesus changed how we live. Do you not get that? He said that certain things were placed in the Law because of how we were, but now we can live by the Spirit. Hence, you know, we can eat shellfish, bacon and all that stuff?

If you believe we are still under the Law, you need to read your Paul.

You need to read the Bible more & the history of the Church.

This is a very important distinction. The church can not say what the Law is. The Pharisees can not make up rules for the Law that aren't given by God. Jesus is the Son of God, and He said he is the Lord of the Sabbath (not the Pharisees). Jesus is Lord, not the church or any religious authorities throughout history.

The early church was still deciding which Jewish customs it should follow. You remember all those letters Paul was writing to churches deciding whether to circumsize? (Which btw, was part of the Law too).

Paul aleady knew that the Gentiles didn't have to get circumsized to convert to Christianity. He wasn't figuring anything out. He is an apostle. It's just a matter of following his leadership and not rebelling against it and/or making up your own rules.

You should read your Proverbs. There is a reason that in a lot of that book it was said that the elders were wise. Their experiences showed them how the world worked. What Tradition is is simply wisdom passed down through the ages, tested along the way. Sometimes it is meant to be held onto and sometimes it isn't, but we all stand on the shoulders of giants of one sort of another. We all follow one tradition or another, whether we acknowledge it or not (ie, the charismatic churches aren't necessarily new, but follow on the teachings of Montanus).

Yet we see by the teachings of the Lord that authority is not always wise, don't we? You follow authority when they are wise, not when they are not.

Jesus does explicitly say that when 2 or more Christians are gathered, He is there... that is Biblical teaching, right? What does that mean to you? Of course, sometimes people don't discern the will of God all that well or aren't listening fully - hence WHY there is a tradition. To filter out the wrongful beliefs that accumulate sometimes (you know like not believing in Easter is ok for a Christian). It is centuries of Christians gathered together in Christ's name and He is in that Tradition - working through it and redeeming his people in following The Way.

Christians are not always right just because 2 or more agree. Sorry, but that's impossible and it's historically not true. The church is not always right, in fact they are frequently wrong.

Trying to point out that you may call yourself what you wish, but if you don't believe in Easter, you aren't a follower of Christ. If anything, maybe you are a follower of Rabbi Jesus, but Easter fully proclaims Him as the Christ.

That's nonsense. Christ never said to practice Easter or any church tradition simply because the church says to.

[Imran Siddiqui]

This is a very important distinction. The church can not say what the Law is. The Pharisees can not make up rules for the Law that aren't given by God. Jesus is the Son of God, and He said he is the Lord of the Sabbath (not the Pharisees). Jesus is Lord, not the church or any religious authorities throughout history.

No one said the Pharisees made up the rules. They just read them from the Pentateuch (the first five books of the Bible). Jesus said now we have the Spirit, we don't need to be under the Law.

Paul aleady knew that the Gentiles didn't have to get circumsized to convert to Christianity. He wasn't figuring anything out. He is an apostle. It's just a matter of following his leadership and not rebelling against it and/or making up your own rules.

But a lot of Christians didn't. They were following the Law that said you had to get circumsized. The Spirit makes that obsolete.

Yet we see by the teachings of the Lord that authority is not always wise, don't we? You follow authority when they are wise, not when they are not.

Hence collective decision making down through the ages. Wisdom filters down as it is constantly tested and holds.

Christians are not always right just because 2 or more agree. Sorry, but that's impossible and it's historically not true. The church is not always right, in fact they are frequently wrong.

They are not always right, but God is always with them. The church works through that which is right through its centuries long conversation. I would trust a church rather than one guy on an internet message board who claims he has the right answer and everyone else is wrong.

That's nonsense. Christ never said to practice Easter or any church tradition simply because the church says to.

If you don't believe in Easter, then you don't believe in the divinity of Christ. And if don't believe in the divinity of Christ, then you don't believe He could forgive sins or redeem Creation. Full stop.

[Ben Kenobi]

The Vulgate is not the Bible, although is has some of the same writings in it. What I meant, of course, is that the biblical cannon doesn't change.

The Vulgate is the bible, Kidicious. How can you be a protestant and believe that the biblical canon does not change? Luther changed the canon!

[Imran Siddiqui]

Ben, I believe Kid's response would likely be that the Apocrypha wasn't actually canon in the first place (basically going through all sorts of justifications for why the canon hasn't changed).

[Ben Kenobi]

Ben, I believe Kid's response would likely be that the Apocrypha wasn't actually canon in the first place (basically going through all sorts of justifications for why the canon hasn't changed).

Even if you accept that - the NT Canon wasn't set until Pope Damasus. That's why the Vulgate was so important, it was the first unified Canon.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Though the term "canon" comes from Athanasius (when listing what books were the NT canon). And Augustine declared the canon officially closed after the Synods of Hippo Regius and the 2 Councils of Carthage.

The Latin Vulgate likely resulted in the fixation of the canon in the Western church (after Damasus's Council of Rome). Though, none of this is to say that it was not the Bible - which was a ludicrous statement by Kid.

[Ben Kenobi]

Though the term "canon" comes from Athanasius (when listing what books were the NT canon). And Augustine declared the canon officially closed after the Synods of Hippo Regius and the 2 Councils of Carthage.

Yep, backing up the first publication of the Vulgate.

Though, none of this is to say that it was not the Bible - which was a ludicrous statement by Kid.

Was I like this when I was a protestant, Imran?