Apostolic Succession

[Imran Siddiqui]

FWIW, I understand the arguments behind Apostolic Succession, but I believe that God's Holy Spirit works in its own ways and doesn't necessarily need an unbroken chain of laying of hands from bishop to bishop, etc, etc.

That said, I have a great debt of gratitude to the Catholic Church. It preserved the faith in Western Europe (as I also have a great debt of gratitude for the Orthodox Church doing the same in Eastern Europe). I may believe that Protestantism is more correct, but I bear no grudge against the Catholics. I think the tradition is very important - it connects us to Christians in time past and while traditions may have undergone some changes, I don't see it as being anti-Christian or wrong headed. I find the liturgy to be absolutely beautiful and connects me, personally, more to God than an evangelical non-liturgical (though, technically, they have their own liturgy) service.

Then again, I am Lutheran (though a Charismatic one with some Anglican ideals) - so perhaps both of you have stuff to find lacking in me .

[Nikolai]

Never heard of this Apostasy. But it's a well known fact that there have been a long "tradition" for the Christian churches to fall astray in wealth, power or pure heresy, and that there have been countless revivals and purifications from holy men to get the churches back on track. Lots of such cases in the Catholic church, lots of them in the Orthodox church, as well as the Protestant church. I call that the Holy Spirit's work in the world, to keep God's church pure.

[Ben Kenobi]

Starting with 'Overcome Catholic.

Here's the list of their 'evidence'.

Full churches on Sundays and Holy Days vs Near-empty churches on Sundays and Holy Days.

Where's the evidence for this? I can't find a seat on holy days in my parish, and it's full, every week.

Abundant religious vocations (priests and nuns), Drastic drop in religious vocations

It's not just the Catholic church having a drop in vocations. Anyways, vocations have been increasing for the last 4 or 5 years, and the decline has more to do with the developed west, than elsewhere.

Altar used vs Altar replaced with a table

Not true at all. Every parish I've attended has an altar. (and I've attended quite a few).

Tabernacle kept on altar in center vs Tabernacle removed or moved to the side

Hrm? Tabernacle is supposed to store the consecrated host. I've never seen a parish without one.

Crucifix over the altar vsCrucifix removed, and other pictures such as that of John Paul II are hung instead

The only time I've see a photo of John Paul II up by the altar is the memorial for when he passed on.

Communion rail vs Communion rail removed

Ah. Finally a valid complaint. That's 1.

Statues of Jesus, Mary, Angels & Saints vs Most if not all statues removed

Euhm, not in my parish.

Veneration of Saints vs Little or no veneration of Saints

Again, not the case. Still plenty of statues honoring the Saints.

Little variations in churches across parishes vs Large variations across parishes

I've been to one out of 10 that was rather out of step. But how do you qualify little vs large?

Modesty regulations strictly adhered to vs Modesty regulations lax or abolished

I would like to ask what this fellow finds appropriate. Are t-shirts inappropriate? It's 90+ F here, almost 3/4ths of the year.

Goal of the Church to convert others to Catholicism vs Conversions no longer a goal – instead Ecumenism is preached

Euhm, no. Just no. They reached out to convert me.

Heresy strictly forbidden by the church vs Heresy no longer discussed

I've had only one where this was the case and that was a problem with the priest. Elsewhere has been fine.

Staying in the state of grace and receiving the sacraments mandatory to save our souls vs Sacraments optional. Little emphasis on the state of the soul, mortal sin, penance, judgment or hell

Maybe in his parish. Not mine at present. Everyone is supposed to attend every week unless sick or ill.

Liturgy and sacraments consistent throughout the centuries vs Liturgy changed and validity of the sacraments now questionable

This is actually heresy. The sacraments do not depend on their form in order to be valid.

Tradition held sacred in every aspect vs Modernism now replaces tradition

Again, very much debatable.

Priests ordained with traditional rite vs Priest validity of ordination questionable due to changes in ordination rituals

Ooh, more heresy. Thanks for finding this kidicious.

So, in short - 2 forms of heresy vs 1 valid complaint.

[Ben Kenobi]

About 100 years before Christianity, Egyptian Mithraists introduced the festival of Sunday, dedicated to worshiping the sun, into the Roman Empire. Later, as Christianity grew, church leaders wished to increase the numbers of the church. In order to make the gospel more attractive to non-Christians, pagan customs were incorporated into the church’s ceremonies. The custom of Sunday worship was welcomed by Christians who desired to differentiate themselves from the Jews, whom they hated because of the Jews’ rejection of the Savior. The first day of the week began to be recognized as both a religious and civil holiday. By the end of the second century, Christians considered it sinful to work on Sunday.

What day did Christ rise from the dead, Kidicious?

[Ben Kenobi]

Papal Dogma 1870: Pope is infallible like the counsel
Dogma on Mary 1950: Pope is infallible without the counsel
Church Law of 1983: Pope is lord over counsel

Why no mention of Trent? Papal infalliability goes back much further than 1870.

[Ben Kenobi]

Officially, before Vatican 2 in 1965 AD, all non-Catholic churchgoers will go to HELL! Today it is different!

Extra ecclesium nulla salus has never been the doctrine of the Catholic church. Fellay et all were excommunicated for teaching it. They've since been reconciled.

Sign of the cross not practiced by apostles but started in 9th century! Tertullian made the sign on the forehead. Today it is different!

That's really got nothing to do with doctrine.

Marriage to non-Catholics was invalid until 1818 AD.

Euhm? No. Just no.

Eucharist: Withholding the communion cup from the laity began in 1416 AD.

The Eucharist is equally valid under one or both species. There is no, and has never been a requirement for the cup to be with the bread.

Eucharist: Frequency of communion changed from weekly to daily in 500 AD.

Where's the evidence for this?

Baptism changed from immersion to sprinkling in 1311 AD.

The Catholic church still does baptism by immersion. Again, the validity of the sacrament isn't restricted to baptism by immersion. Baptism doesn't even require someone who is Catholic to perform it.

No infant baptism till 4th century.

Again, evidence?

No Pope was considered infallible until 1870 AD

Not the case at Trent or the other prior councils.

[Imran Siddiqui]

What day did Christ rise from the dead, Kidicious?

I found that complaint to be quite strange as well. I believe there has been some evidence as well that the early Church celebrated the Lord's Day.

[Kidlicious]

What day did Christ rise from the dead, Kidicious?

You are very predictable BK. This isn't even an argument.

[Kidlicious]

Why no mention of Trent? Papal infalliability goes back much further than 1870.

So you're saying the change started in 1545. Thanks for correcting me and agreeing with me that the RCC has changed.

[Kidlicious]

Where's the evidence for this?

My source.

[Kidlicious]

1 valid complaint.

Then your church has changed. The individual is responsible for deciding for themselves if the RCC is the right church for them since it is not the same church that it once was. It's completely reasonable to call yourself a christian and not a catholic and to say there is nothing wrong with that.

[Kidlicious]

I found that complaint to be quite strange as well. I believe there has been some evidence as well that the early Church celebrated the Lord's Day.

Did Christ say change the Sabbath to whatever day of the week that I rise from the dead on? No, it's a church tradition. Which would not be a big deal, except that it's the DAY OF THE SABBATH! Which is God's Law. I'm sorry to disappoint you, but Sunday is NOT the Sabbath.

[Ben Kenobi]

You are very predictable BK. This isn't even an argument.

He rose on Sunday. Ergo, Christians commemorate his death and resurrection every sunday. Oh, wait, sorry. Catholics commemorate his death and resurrection every sunday at Mass.

[Ben Kenobi]

So you're saying the change started in 1545. Thanks for correcting me and agreeing with me that the RCC has changed

That's not what I said, is it? I'm saying that it's a dishonest argument they are advancing by ignoring evidence that disproves their argument. The first invocation of it is at the First Ecumenical Council at Nicaea. That's considered, at least by the Catholic church, to be the first infalliable papal declaration. IOW - all protestants actually accept papal infalliability to some degree, (as they accept the first 4 ecumenical councils.)

[Kidlicious]

He rose on Sunday. Ergo, Christians commemorate his death and resurrection every sunday. Oh, wait, sorry. Catholics commemorate his death and resurrection every sunday at Mass.

That's great. But Sunday is not the Sabbath.