Apostolic Succession

[Ben Kenobi]

Ok, here you go Kid - splitting it off from the other thread. When did the Great Apostasy occur and when did the Catholic church promulgate Apostolic Succession?

[Kidlicious]

Ok, here you go Kid - splitting it off from the other thread. When did the Great Apostasy occur and when did the Catholic church promulgate Apostolic Succession?

Not being a catholic, I don't feel the same way about church as you do. So I'm not concerned so much with the time that the Great Apostasy occurred, and I think that if I were to give a time I would say it probably happened within 100 years after Paul.

Regarding Apostolic Succession I don't know for sure. I've read that it happened in the second century, although my gut feeling is that it began sooner that that.

[Kidlicious]

Churches always change, that's why the Bible is so important. It doesn't change.

[Ben Kenobi]

So I'm not concerned so much with the time that the Great Apostasy occurred, and I think that if I were to give a time I would say it probably happened within 100 years after Paul.

The Great Apostasy is a 100 percent Protestant invention. There's no evidence for it whatsoever. What Apostolic succession is - states that bishops were consecrated by another bishop and so on and so forth, all the way from St. Peter to Pope Benedict XVI. You can look at every century, every period of history in between, and you will find bishops, and saints and priests of the Catholic church. You see this in the doctors of the church - you see Origen, Tertullian, etc. There isn't a gap - where you can go and say that the Church in Tertullian's time is different from the one in St. Augustine's time.

Suppose I wasn't a Catholic - Kidicious. Do you think I would find your argument convincing? If you don't know when it happened and can't put a date on it - would that not suggest to you that it never actually happened?

[Ben Kenobi]

Churches always change, that's why the Bible is so important. It doesn't change.

Ok, remember what St. Paul teaches about the Church being the bride of Christ. If you get married, does your marriage change over the years? Yes. Do your marriage vows change over the years? No.

The Church has a human nature and a divine nature. The divine nature does not change. The human nature - the saints, bishops, priests, etc, all live, die, and pass away. But the doctrine remains the same. The divine nature of the Church is the same as it was in the first century.

[Kidlicious]

The Great Apostasy is a 100 percent Protestant invention. There's no evidence for it whatsoever.

:rofl: I knew this would be good.

What Apostolic succession is - states that bishops were consecrated by another bishop and so on and so forth, all the way from St. Peter to Pope Benedict XVI. You can look at every century, every period of history in between, and you will find bishops, and saints and priests of the Catholic church. You see this in the doctors of the church - you see Origen, Tertullian, etc. There isn't a gap - where you can go and say that the Church in Tertullian's time is different from the one in St. Augustine's time.

So you say.

Suppose I wasn't a Catholic - Kidicious. Do you think I would find your argument convincing? If you don't know when it happened and can't put a date on it - would that not suggest to you that it never actually happened?

The history of the RCC is the evidence.

[Kidlicious]

Ok, remember what St. Paul teaches about the Church being the bride of Christ. If you get married, does your marriage change over the years? Yes. Do your marriage vows change over the years? No.

I'm not married to my church. I have a similar relationship to God though.

The Church has a human nature and a divine nature. The divine nature does not change. The human nature - the saints, bishops, priests, etc, all live, die, and pass away. But the doctrine remains the same. The divine nature of the Church is the same as it was in the first century.

The church never had a divine nature. Paul was not divine, either was Peter.

[Ben Kenobi]

The history of the RCC is the evidence.

Of it's existence back to St. Peter? Absolutely.

I guess my question is this - if you're looking at the supposed 'Great Apostasy', why do they never mention Marcion?

[Ben Kenobi]

The church never had a divine nature. Paul was not divine, either was Peter.

For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior.

Ephesians 5:23

This is the divine nature, in Christ, as the Head of his Church.

Also- do note. Christ is not a bigamist. He has His Church. Just as a husband is to have only one wife - Christ has His Church, and none other. This is why the division is so scandalous - we are saying that Christ can have many wives all at the same time.

[Kidlicious]

Of it's existence back to St. Peter? Absolutely.

I'm not arguing otherwise. That doesn't matter to me. Peter is not the Pope right now, just as the current catholic church is not the same church that it was when Peter walked the earth.

I guess my question is this - if you're looking at the supposed 'Great Apostasy', why do they never mention Marcion?

I wasn't looking at the Great Apostasy, but you wanted to discuss it. I don't know why they never mention Marcion. Why don't they?

[Kidlicious]

Ephesians 5:23

This is the divine nature, in Christ, as the Head of his Church.

Also- do note. Christ is not a bigamist. He has His Church. Just as a husband is to have only one wife - Christ has His Church, and none other. This is why the division is so scandalous - we are saying that Christ can have many wives all at the same time.

Christ is not literally married to the Church Ben. There is a point to that verse, which is not the absolute authority of the RCC.

[Ben Kenobi]

just as the current catholic church is not the same church that it was when Peter walked the earth.

What makes you think so?

why they never mention Marcion. Why don't they?

There was a Great Apostasy - the problem is that the Protestants are all Chalcedonians and Nicaeans. They are on the same side as the Catholic church. That is why they never mention Marcion. The Catholic church preserved the faith.

[Kidlicious]

What makes you think so?



There was a Great Apostasy - the problem is that the Protestants are all Chalcedonians and Nicaeans. They are on the same side as the Catholic church. That is why they never mention Marcion. The Catholic church preserved the faith.

They didn't preserve it in my view. They preserved the Bible, for that they get credit. However, they changed tradition and made the new tradition equal authority with the Bible.

[Ben Kenobi]

However, they changed tradition and made the new tradition equal authority with the Bible.

If the Catholic church came first, wouldn't it make more sense to say that they kept the traditions and the protestants changed them?

[Kidlicious]

If the Catholic church came first, wouldn't it make more sense to say that they kept the traditions and the protestants changed them?

No.

About 100 years before Christianity, Egyptian Mithraists introduced the festival of Sunday, dedicated to worshiping the sun, into the Roman Empire. Later, as Christianity grew, church leaders wished to increase the numbers of the church. In order to make the gospel more attractive to non-Christians, pagan customs were incorporated into the church’s ceremonies. The custom of Sunday worship was welcomed by Christians who desired to differentiate themselves from the Jews, whom they hated because of the Jews’ rejection of the Savior. The first day of the week began to be recognized as both a religious and civil holiday. By the end of the second century, Christians considered it sinful to work on Sunday.

http://www.sabbathtruth.com/free-res...geid/1097.aspx

THE EXPANSION OF PAPAL POWER IN MODERN TIMES

Papal Dogma 1870: Pope is infallible like the counsel
Dogma on Mary 1950: Pope is infallible without the counsel
Church Law of 1983: Pope is lord over counsel

http://www.reformed.org/webfiles/antithesis/index.html?mainframe=/webfiles/antithesis/v1n2/ant_v1n2_canon.html

Officially, before Vatican 2 in 1965 AD, all non-Catholic churchgoers will go to HELL! Today it is different!

Sign of the cross not practiced by apostles but started in 9th century! Tertullian made the sign on the forehead. Today it is different!
53 Roman Catholic Doctrines not found in the Bible (1400 years of doctrinal evolution)

Marriage to non-Catholics was invalid until 1818 AD.

Eucharist: Withholding the communion cup from the laity began in 1416 AD.

Eucharist: Frequency of communion changed from weekly to daily in 500 AD.

Baptism changed from immersion to sprinkling in 1311 AD.

No infant baptism till 4th century.

No Pope was considered infallible until 1870 AD

http://www.bible.ca/catholic-flip-flops.htm

Altar replaced with a table

Tabernacle removed or moved to the side

Crucifix removed, and other pictures such as that of John Paul II are hung instead

Communion rail removed

Most if not all statues removed

Little or no veneration of Saints

Large variations across parishes

Modesty regulations lax or abolished

Conversions no longer a goal – instead Ecumenism is preached

Heresy no longer discussed

Sacraments optional. Little emphasis on the state of the soul, mortal sin, penance, judgment or hell

Liturgy changed and validity of the sacraments now questionable

Modernism now replaces tradition

Priest validity of ordination questionable due to changes in ordination rituals

http://overcomeproblems.com/catholic_church.htm

There are too many changes to list actually.