Apostolic Succession

[Ben Kenobi]

Too YOU it is an important part of Christian faith. Ergo, you are catholic. I am not. I don't worry about details that don't concern me, to be honest.

This has nothing to do with Catholic vs Protestant. This is a basic understanding of the account of the Passion.

I believe that Christ never gave the Pope or the church the authority that they claim

I once believed as you did. Then I saw this passage. :

Matthew 16:18-19

And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

Christ does give this authority to St. Peter, the first bishop of Rome and the first Pope.

I find fault in you telling people that they should be catholic simply because it was the first church. That is a bad reason to pick a church.

because it fits your needs

I ran into a fellow that quite explained things to me. G.K. Chesterton. He said:

“We do not really want a religion that is right where we are right. What we want is a religion that is right where we are wrong.”

Church is not about me, or what I want or need. Church is about the truth. Why am I Catholic? Because I believe that Christ called us to be one in Him - and if the mountain will not come to Mohammed, then Mohammed must come to the mountain. Christ preaches very strongly that we are all brothers and sisters. He doesn't say, "invisible brothers and sisters", just brothers and sisters.

[Ben Kenobi]

Why do you constantly avoid the issue? It doesn make your argument look good.

I would encourage someone to attend a parish where they could kneel before reception - altar rails or no.

You have your answer. That you don't like the answer I gave isn't my problem. If you want better answers - ask better questions.

[Kidlicious]

This has nothing to do with Catholic vs Protestant. This is a basic understanding of the account of the Passion.

And the day of the week is not an important detail to me, although I worship on Good Friday.

I once believed as you did. Then I saw this passage. :

Matthew 16:18-19



Christ does give this authority to St. Peter, the first bishop of Rome and the first Pope.

Yes He gave him authority to do good, not bad. That doesn't mean that the Pope never does bad.

I ran into a fellow that quite explained things to me. G.K. Chesterton. He said:



Church is not about me, or what I want or need. Church is about the truth.

Yes it is about you. It is for you to grow spiritually.

Why am I Catholic? Because I believe that Christ called us to be one in Him - and if the mountain will not come to Mohammed, then Mohammed must come to the mountain. Christ preaches very strongly that we are all brothers and sisters. He doesn't say, "invisible brothers and sisters", just brothers and sisters.

"Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth." - John 17:17 To become one you need to be sanctified by the truth (God's Word). When this comes into conflict with the church that you are attending you need to find another church.

[Ben Kenobi]

Yes He gave him authority to do good, not bad. That doesn't mean that the Pope never does bad.

Right. Papal infalliability means that the Pope never does bad and that the pope is sinless. Gosh. How could that doctrine ever be disproved?

Yes it is about you. It is for you to grow spiritually.

So it is ok for a Church to teach stuff that is wrong if you personally benefit?

To become one you need to be sanctified by the truth (God's Word). When this comes into conflict with the church that you are attending you need to find another church.

Which I did some time ago. Church is at the core - about truth, not about the prosperity Gospel. Christ never promises you a rose garden. He promises just the opposite.

[Kidlicious]

So I have to choose between papal infallibility and the prosperity gospel?

[Imran Siddiqui]

Did Christ say change the Sabbath to whatever day of the week that I rise from the dead on? No, it's a church tradition. Which would not be a big deal, except that it's the DAY OF THE SABBATH! Which is God's Law. I'm sorry to disappoint you, but Sunday is NOT the Sabbath.

Who said Sunday is the sabbath? It's not. Christians aren't required to honor the sabbath anymore since they aren't Jews. We honor the Lord's Day... when Jesus conquered sin and death and ushered in the beginnings of the Kingdom. It is to always celebrate what happened on Easter morning and to remind us that it is STILL Easter.

[Imran Siddiqui]

This has nothing to do with Catholic vs Protestant. This is a basic understanding of the account of the Passion.

Agreed. There is a reason that every church celebrates Easter on a Sunday.

[SlowwHand]

If you ever have the opportunity, go see The Great Passion Play at Eureka Springs, Arkansas. Fantastic. Christ of The Ozarks is also inspiring.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled argument.

[Jon Miller]

People beginning to keep Sunday started in the first 100 years. People stopped keeping the Sabbath after some time, I think, and things formally changed in the Council of Laodicia. Here is the Catholic/Tradition Perspective:

http://www.catholic.com/tracts/sabbath-or-sunday

I think even people in the first hundred years were wrong, and that the Sabbath should still be kept.

Obviously some people were keeping the Sabbath after the council of Laodicia.

JM

[Kidlicious]

Who said Sunday is the sabbath? It's not. Christians aren't required to honor the sabbath anymore since they aren't Jews. We honor the Lord's Day... when Jesus conquered sin and death and ushered in the beginnings of the Kingdom. It is to always celebrate what happened on Easter morning and to remind us that it is STILL Easter.

Who told you not to honor the Sabbath? Jesus criticized the Pharisees for not keeping the Sabbath and obeying the Law. And Jesus was Jewish, so were the earliest Chistians and so I'm I (at least the same way Jesus was ).

edit: I don't think it's a sin not to honor the Sabbath, but I think it was wrong to change the day. I think the motivation was to appeal to anti-semetic pagans.

[kentonio]

Looks like some churches are looking towards re-uniting at least to a degree.

Five denominations - including the Church in Wales, Presbyterians and Methodists - could ultimately share bishops, ministers and buildings.

The proposed Church Uniting in Wales would also include Presbyterians and some Baptists.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-19929715

[Kidlicious]

Agreed. There is a reason that every church celebrates Easter on a Sunday.

This has nothing to do with Easter, and I see no problem celebrating Easter on whatever day.

[Nikolai]

Who told you not to honor the Sabbath? Jesus criticized the Pharisees for not keeping the Sabbath and obeying the Law. And Jesus was Jewish, so were the earliest Chistians and so I'm I (at least the same way Jesus was ).

edit: I don't think it's a sin not to honor the Sabbath, but I think it was wrong to change the day. I think the motivation was to appeal to anti-semetic pagans.

We are not bound by the Law as Christians. We should seek the spirit of the Law, and in this case that's that it is good for man to have one day of rest. Paul in Colossians 2 say this on the matter:

16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

[Jon Miller]

It isn't so clear when you look for meaning.

Someone who agrees with you:

http://sda2rc.blogspot.se/2009/12/sabbath-in-col-216-17.html

Obviously SDAs mostly don't.

JM

[Kidlicious]

We are not bound by the Law as Christians. We should seek the spirit of the Law, and in this case that's that it is good for man to have one day of rest. Paul in Colossians 2 say this on the matter:

16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

Paul was a very existentialist teacher. If you choose not to celebrate the Sabbath then no, don't let anyone judge you. However, keep in mind that God created the Sabbath for Christian and Jew a like. Is it right to reject God's gift?