How does this happen? Chick-fil-A branded as anti-gay?

[Jon Miller]

I am not sure why people enjoy engaging with BK on this subject.

JM

[Ben Kenobi]

Can't you see though how refusal of service across the private sector can be as discriminatory and have almost as big a negative effect on peoples lives as refusal of public services?

Try being a deaf person ordering at Sonic.

Try banking or ordering anything over the phone.

Things are way better now than they were 20 years ago, so no complaints there. I remember what it was like before captions, before the internet, before instant messaging, and before forums like this. All 4 of these have had a tremendous impact on my life, and opened me up to a much larger world.

I don't see that there are many businesses that would be willing to lose a portion of their business in this manner. Not the way things are now. Maybe in some really small towns, but then you're getting back to the point I was making about the mexican businesses, etc.

Do not cater, how? Do they refuse to serve white customers?

Do you know what an Iglesias is?

Do white people apply for jobs there in significant numbers? Do they hire publically on a regular basis but only consider asian applicants?

They hire Vietnamese people to run the coffeeshops because that's what they are and that's what they do. Even the chinese food place back home was like that. Chinese lady servers, chinese cooks, chinese owner, etc. Nobody bats an eye. It's expected that if you're going for chinese food, that you'll be seeing chinese people there.

Apart from the huge human cost, I tend to agree. I imagine my 'fixed' system would differ quite substantially from yours however.

You might be surprised. I have a very low opinion of business subsidies from the state. I have a two handed approach. I'd rather let businesses have more freedom to do what they want to do, but at the same time, I want them to bear the cost of their bad business decisions 100 percent, and not the taxpayer.

I used to work for a developer and a significant proportion of my job was negotiating with the city and provincial officials, generally for waivers and exemptions. Loved the owner, hated the job.

I'm pretty sure 96% of America didn't vote for Obama.

96 percent of Black America did.

4% of Americans were willing to publcially admit they wouldn't vote for a black president. That's 12 million(ish) people who are openly racist. How many more do you think might be racist but not willing to say so to a stranger?

How many of that 4 percent are white people?

It would be hard to get a county with a majority of people who felt that way with 4 percent of the nation.

There's also considerably more black people in America than deaf people. I'm not having a go at your disability anyway, if you remember I come from the communist liberal hell of euroland

Never said you were. I'm just saying that if you look over the last 30 years I can't see very much difference between my life and between the lives of the black kids.

[rah]

All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.

And it is so hilarious listening to Ben claim that he has had it worse than blacks.

And no matter how he rationalizes it, if he thinks businesses should be able to choose not to serve blacks. (or whatever minority based only on that) He's a racist by definition.

[Ben Kenobi]

And no matter how he rationalizes it, if he thinks businesses should be able to choose not to serve blacks. (or whatever minority based only on that) He's a racist by definition.

White people are a minority now?

[rah]

How the heck does that make a difference? If you think a business should be able to choose not to serve whites, that's racist by definition also.
Quit trying to deflect the question. (yes, I know it's tough for you)

If you believe that a business should be allowed to deny service to any group of people based only on them being part of that group, it's racist.
Saying the market will drive them out of business, is immaterial. It changes nothing. Bigot.

[kentonio]

Try being a deaf person ordering at Sonic.

Try banking or ordering anything over the phone.

Things are way better now than they were 20 years ago, so no complaints there. I remember what it was like before captions, before the internet, before instant messaging, and before forums like this. All 4 of these have had a tremendous impact on my life, and opened me up to a much larger world.

So why is life better if a business can refuse you service on the basis of you being deaf?

Do you know what an Iglesias is?

Haven't got the foggiest, and google doesn't seem to help either. You didn't answer my question though, do those businesses refuse to serve white customers?

They hire Vietnamese people to run the coffeeshops because that's what they are and that's what they do. Even the chinese food place back home was like that. Chinese lady servers, chinese cooks, chinese owner, etc. Nobody bats an eye. It's expected that if you're going for chinese food, that you'll be seeing chinese people there.

Again you didn't answer my questions: Do they publically hire but only to asians? Do white people regularly apply for those jobs?

You might be surprised. I have a very low opinion of business subsidies from the state. I have a two handed approach. I'd rather let businesses have more freedom to do what they want to do, but at the same time, I want them to bear the cost of their bad business decisions 100 percent, and not the taxpayer.

Whereas I think that businesses who operate in society should be regulated to ensure they aren't doing harm to society.

96 percent of Black America did.

How many of that 4 percent are white people?

Whats the relevance? My argument isn't 'only white folk are racist', but that if you allow racism to build up unchecked then it tends to spread, and when blacks are suffering under racism from whites, they themselves become racist in return and the whole nasty cycle just spirals into a hateful society.

It would be hard to get a county with a majority of people who felt that way with 4 percent of the nation.

Not really, attitudes tend to be localized. I'd expect that if those people were shown on a map that you'd see very strong clustering effects. That would almost certainly get considerably worse if people were allowed to freely discriminate.

Never said you were. I'm just saying that if you look over the last 30 years I can't see very much difference between my life and between the lives of the black kids.

This is where you confuse me though. You've clearly had to put up with a lot of hard **** growing up with a disability, but surely the natural response to that is to aim for a system where others will not have to face the same problems regardless of whether that's because of a disability, race etc. It seems sometimes like instead you take the position of 'Well I had to deal with all that ****, so I don't care that others will have to in future', which is a little sad.

[rah]

Yeah, I would think that with his handicap and how he was treated that he would have a bit more empathy to the plight of other groups. But it seems that it only made him more bitter. It's sad.
And to use his political and religious beliefs as justification for his bigotry is even worse.

[Asher]

So it's ok to call other posters 'pedophiles' now?

Aren't you all about free speech?

You've complained to the mods to try to get them to ban me, all the while you and your ilk whine about free speech.

Classic.

[giblets]

Aren't you all about free speech?

You've complained to the mods to try to get them to ban me, all the while you and your ilk whine about free speech.

Classic.

As long as your censor isn't the government it's "free speech" in Benland I guess.

[Ben Kenobi]

So why is life better if a business can refuse you service on the basis of you being deaf?

Who said that the primary reason for things was to make my life better? It's not. That's the point.

Haven't got the foggiest, and google doesn't seem to help either. You didn't answer my question though, do those businesses refuse to serve white customers?

They are small banks set up to help folks save their money and send some back to Mexico. Interesting places for sure. Like I said, I'm not their target clientele. And you know what? That doesn't bother me.

Again you didn't answer my questions: Do they publically hire but only to asians? Do white people regularly apply for those jobs?

Yes, they only hire asians. As for two, does it matter? They have only hired asians.

Whereas I think that businesses who operate in society should be regulated to ensure they aren't doing harm to society.

Even if that regulation is detrimental to the operation of the business, and to society in general?

Whats the relevance? My argument isn't 'only white folk are racist', but that if you allow racism to build up unchecked then it tends to spread, and when blacks are suffering under racism from whites, they themselves become racist in return and the whole nasty cycle just spirals into a hateful society.

So your argument is that unless 100 percent of the people agree with you the government needs to step in to ensure compliance? That sounds awfully fascist to me.

Some people are always going to believe things contrary to you. That only 96 percent of americans agree with you strikes me as evidence that the problem is solved.

Not really, attitudes tend to be localized. I'd expect that if those people were shown on a map that you'd see very strong clustering effects.

Not enough to get you up to 50 though.

That would almost certainly get considerably worse if people were allowed to freely discriminate.

You're not going to get 100 percent of Americans to agree on anything.

You've clearly had to put up with a lot of hard **** growing up with a disability, but surely the natural response to that is to aim for a system where others will not have to face the same problems regardless of whether that's because of a disability, race etc. It seems sometimes like instead you take the position of 'Well I had to deal with all that ****, so I don't care that others will have to in future', which is a little sad.

The problem is that the system isn't working. Perpetuating a broken system isn't going to help anyone, least of all the folks you are trying to help. That's why I'm opposed to government intervention because it just makes things worse, not better.

The system has never worked for me my entire life. Don't you think that would color my approach?

[Ben Kenobi]

You've complained to the mods to try to get them to ban me, all the while you and your ilk whine about free speech.

My ilk? What exactly is my ilk?

[Ben Kenobi]

Yeah, I would think that with his handicap and how he was treated that he would have a bit more empathy to the plight of other groups. But it seems that it only made him more bitter. It's sad.

It couldn't possibly be that I believe that the current system is broken and needs to be scrapped? It's not working Rah, and the folks who really want to help people are the ones working outside of the system.

As designed, I would have had a 4th grade reading level, never would have finished high school, never would have went onto university. Never would have done anything had my parents done what was expected of them and put me into the system.

That doesn't trouble you, rah?

[Ben Kenobi]

How the heck does that make a difference? If you think a business should be able to choose not to serve whites, that's racist by definition also.

So a business that posted up a sign saying, "we reserve the right to refuse service to anyone" is racist?

If you believe that a business should be allowed to deny service to any group of people based only on them being part of that group, it's racist.

I believe a business owner can refuse service for any reason whatsoever. To anybody.

Saying the market will drive them out of business, is immaterial.

Why is it immaterial? If these businesses are driven out of business and are shut down - then haven't you accomplished your goal of compliance?

[kentonio]

They are small banks set up to help folks save their money and send some back to Mexico. Interesting places for sure. Like I said, I'm not their target clientele. And you know what? That doesn't bother me.

You're comparing apples to oranges. If you had family in Mexico and tried to use that service, I'm pretty sure they'd be happy to accomodate you. Offering a service that is primarily used by one group is not in any way the same as refusing to serve people based on their race or gender or disabilities etc.

Yes, they only hire asians. As for two, does it matter? They have only hired asians.

How do you know they only hire asians? Have you ever seen them advertise for staff and recieve lots of non-asian applicants? It's relevant because often small minority communities hire family/friends/aquaintances rather than using a formal hiring process.

Even if that regulation is detrimental to the operation of the business, and to society in general?

I couldn't give a **** if its to the detriment of the business. If someones making an awesome profit and poisoning a river, then stopping them poisoning the river is the thing that matters, not saving their profits. People talk about business as if it will just disappear at the slightest constraint, yet supply and demand means that is not the case in the slightest.

So your argument is that unless 100 percent of the people agree with you the government needs to step in to ensure compliance? That sounds awfully fascist to me.

We expect our governments to step in to regulate all sorts of behaviour we consider harmful to society as a whole.

Some people are always going to believe things contrary to you. That only 96 percent of americans agree with you strikes me as evidence that the problem is solved.

Yet that 96% is a result of a system with the very measures you now want to remove.

The problem is that the system isn't working. Perpetuating a broken system isn't going to help anyone, least of all the folks you are trying to help. That's why I'm opposed to government intervention because it just makes things worse, not better.

The system has never worked for me my entire life. Don't you think that would color my approach?

Yet the fact America has gone from segregation to a black president seems to show that the system HAS been working for some people. So why not expand that to try and help other groups who are suffering like the disabled, instead of just ripping apart a system that has actually helped people?

[rah]

It couldn't possibly be that I believe that the current system is broken and needs to be scrapped? It's not working Rah, and the folks who really want to help people are the ones working outside of the system.

As designed, I would have had a 4th grade reading level, never would have finished high school, never would have went onto university. Never would have done anything had my parents done what was expected of them and put me into the system.

That doesn't trouble you, rah?

I guess bitter is the answer for you.

All that you're saying has nothing to do with my original comments. (which is typical of you)
Very simply. If you believe that a business can deny service based solely on race, it's racist by definition. You can say all you want that the system isn't right and needs to be fixed but I don't care because it isn't part of my argument. By definition its racist. Please feel free to look up the definition if you're that dense. I do not want to hear from you that it's ok to be racist because the system is broken.

So a business that posted up a sign saying, "we reserve the right to refuse service to anyone" is racist?

If it's used to deny blacks just because they're black (or substitute any other group) then yes, it is racist by definition.

I believe a business owner can refuse service for any reason whatsoever. To anybody.

Again racist BY DEFINITION

Why is it immaterial? If these businesses are driven out of business and are shut down - then haven't you accomplished your goal of compliance?

I'm not interested in compliance, I'm just stating that they're racists BY DEFINITION.

You think that the system is broken so you don't care if they're racist, BY DEFINITION. That's your opinion and you're welcome to it.
My initial point was that some of the arguments that you posted to support YOUR OPINION were similar to those used by racists back in the 60's to discriminate against blacks.
You have not posted any real rebuttals to that. I really don't care about your arguments that support your opinions.