Does hell really make sense?

[giblets]

Again, you're chhosing not to believe even though you don't even have an alternate explaination. It seems obvious that you just want to do your own will. No christian KNOWS anything, but he takes a leap of faith. He makes a sacrifice. You just say you don't know anything and go on doing whatever you want. Why would you not have consequences?

I think the number of possible alternatives to christianity is infinite. There could be a god that will send you to hell if and only if you're a christian, for all I know. I could come up with all sorts of alternative possibilities but what would be the point? I'm in no position to try to figure out what the truth is. I don't think I'm capable of figuring it out. That makes it impossible to know what the eternal consequences, if any, of my actions are. Death is pretty scary actually.

[kentonio]

You are not paying for their sins in the way that 'you deserve punishment because your grandfather hit my grandfather'. I could be wrong about this, by the way, I am not a theologian.

Well it seems to be worse, it seems to be that 'you have a strong chance of being sent to hell for eternity (or annihilated) because of something a couple in a garden did in the faint past.

You are paying for their sins in the same way as I am paying for the people in the US behaving economically irresponsible for the last N years. Or that I pay for the US being belligerent in the last N years. Or that I pay for the pollution that my ancestors/etc/etc have been pumping into the environment.

Collective responsibility is a fact.

Or do you think that I am not paying for the above?

That doesn't make it fair or just, which are things we would expect from a beneficient creator, surely?

But the issue is that it never happens. Anyone who is honest to themselves recognizes that they do wrongful deeds.

JM

Of course not, but you seem to be saying that it's ok for some people to do the bad stuff, because it'll all get wiped clean anyway for them due to them having faith, whereas someone else who's done less bad stuff is doomed.

[Elok]

This thread will inevitably turn into a fustercluck, because the Xian community on Poly consists of a completely heterogeneous mass of believers, and no two denominations agree exactly on what hell is. Also, trying to guess what reasons an omnipotent, omniscient, immortal and time-transcending intelligence may have for a given decision...that would seem to be a fairly pointless endeavor. You're setting yourself up for frustration and/or faulty conclusions there. The answers to a lot of your questions are going to be a shrug. However, be that as it may...

WRT what Jon said, consider the story of Adam and Eve. Don't bother over whether they're supposed to be two literal people or an allegory for humanity or whatever. But consider it. They are both plainly aware of God's existence. He's given them clear instructions to follow and walks and talks with Adam all the time. That does nothing to prevent the Fall. Indeed, it incites the Fall; Eve eats the fruit at least partly because she resents divine authority, because the Serpent (Satan? Somebody else? An allegory? Does it matter?) tells her that God doesn't want her to be wise like Him.

Fast-forward however many years, Jesus tells the story of the Prodigal Son. The Son wishes to go out on his own, so he takes his inheritance and leaves to "a far-off country," at least in KJV. Where is the far-off country? It's right here. We declared independence from God, and He let us go. We're on our own, making our own choices, generally screwing them up. But He lets us, because that's what we wanted. If He were to intrude, make his presence perfectly clear and obvious, would that help? I don't think so. Certainly not in a culture such as ours, which prioritizes individual freedom. We'd revolt en masse, far more than we do already.

A lot of us say we want to be reunited to God. I think very few of us really mean it. We would like it insofar as we think of it as a Good Thing to be desired in the abstract, but we want it on our terms. Just look at what a lot of us make of Him: not a king or overlord making commands, but a sort of buddy or cool dude to chillax with or whatever daft things people say these days about the eternal logos. I myself, when I think of God, tend to think of the nice old grandfather and not of all the things He wants me to do but I regularly ignore. In short, I, like everybody else, make an idol of God, substituting my image for the real thing because I like the image. And He lets me, because that's what I want. Do I hear from God when I pray to the idol? No. Why should I? I'm not talking to Him, and it's rude to interrupt.

All the bad, shallow or vulgar things we do--fooling around, watching stupid stuff on TV, talking **** about each other, getting wasted, wasting our money, wasting our time, wasting our lives--serve the purpose of encasing us in a wall of noise. We are, in effect, sticking our fingers in our ears and going LALALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU, not that we think of it that way. It's only when we make the slightest gesture to stop the noise, to obey God and show Him we want Him, that He becomes a presence in our lives. Understanding comes from obedience; to the extent Christianity has failed to enlighten us, it has failed because we failed first to be Christians.

For a far more eloquent phrasing of that general idea, and a lot of other stuff besides, see C.S. Lewis's "Till We Have Faces."

[kentonio]

WRT what Jon said, consider the story of Adam and Eve. Don't bother over whether they're supposed to be two literal people or an allegory for humanity or whatever. But consider it. They are both plainly aware of God's existence. He's given them clear instructions to follow and walks and talks with Adam all the time. That does nothing to prevent the Fall. Indeed, it incites the Fall; Eve eats the fruit at least partly because she resents divine authority, because the Serpent (Satan? Somebody else? An allegory? Does it matter?) tells her that God doesn't want her to be wise like Him.

Fast-forward however many years, Jesus tells the story of the Prodigal Son. The Son wishes to go out on his own, so he takes his inheritance and leaves to "a far-off country," at least in KJV. Where is the far-off country? It's right here. We declared independence from God, and He let us go. We're on our own, making our own choices, generally screwing them up. But He lets us, because that's what we wanted. If He were to intrude, make his presence perfectly clear and obvious, would that help? I don't think so. Certainly not in a culture such as ours, which prioritizes individual freedom. We'd revolt en masse, far more than we do already.

I think I'd be far more likely to be able to accept that theory if it wasn't for the huge punishment hanging over anyone failing to find their way. A bus hits a three year old who had they not been hit by a bus would have found god. That three year old is presumably doomed for eternity, no? How about the example I used with jon earlier about rainforest tribes who don't have the same access to the bible as most others? Or people born in muslim countries who are brought up to believe in Allah instead?

Basically the playing field is completely unbalanced and unfair to vast numbers of humans, so how can that be a reasonable expectation to put upon us?

[Ben Kenobi]

I used with jon earlier about rainforest tribes who don't have the same access to the bible as most others? Or people born in muslim countries who are brought up to believe in Allah instead?

Considering how this point has already been addressed... Read Romans. You'll find your answer there.

[kentonio]

Ahah, I missed that the first time. You mean..

Secondly, if you read Romans, we all have a conscience. Now if what you say is true, then we already have knowledge of God written on our hearts, even those who have not heard of Christ. They can still live in accordance to their conscience, and will be judged on what knowledge they do have and their ability to understand. Christ can read hearts and minds, something that we cannot.

Except that doesn't fit with the idea that you can only find salvation through faith..

[Barnabas]

If I recall correctly, Eastern Orthodox Christians understand the fall not as a sin which is inherited by all humans, but more like as the entrance of sin into the world, the corruption of our nature, something that gave us a propensity to sin.
And lately the Catholic Church has worded the concept of original sin in a similar way to the eastern orthodox way.

[Ben Kenobi]

Except that doesn't fit with the idea that you can only find salvation through faith..

Good thing I don't believe in Sola Fidae. As Paul says, "it was credited to him as righteousness".

I really encourage you to read all of Romans if you can. Paul addresses all your questions there.

[Jon Miller]

I think I'd be far more likely to be able to accept that theory if it wasn't for the huge punishment hanging over anyone failing to find their way. A bus hits a three year old who had they not been hit by a bus would have found god. That three year old is presumably doomed for eternity, no? How about the example I used with jon earlier about rainforest tribes who don't have the same access to the bible as most others? Or people born in muslim countries who are brought up to believe in Allah instead?

Basically the playing field is completely unbalanced and unfair to vast numbers of humans, so how can that be a reasonable expectation to put upon us?

First, I never saw your rainforest tribes example/etc, if I did I would have replied that I think that plenty of people will be saved who have no knowledge of Christ's existence. God gives people a choice where they are, and that includes those who are born in muslim speaking countries or those in the rainforest or those before Christ lived on this earth.

As far as the playing field being unbalanced, so what?

If I give one person 1000 dollars and another 10000 dollars, should the person I gave 1000 dollars complain and reject my 1000 dollars because I didn't give him 10000 dollars?

1 “For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire workers for his vineyard. 2 He agreed to pay them a denarius[a] for the day and sent them into his vineyard.
3 “About nine in the morning he went out and saw others standing in the marketplace doing nothing. 4 He told them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard, and I will pay you whatever is right.’ 5 So they went.

“He went out again about noon and about three in the afternoon and did the same thing. 6 About five in the afternoon he went out and found still others standing around. He asked them, ‘Why have you been standing here all day long doing nothing?’

7 “‘Because no one has hired us,’ they answered.

“He said to them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard.’

8 “When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, ‘Call the workers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last ones hired and going on to the first.’

9 “The workers who were hired about five in the afternoon came and each received a denarius. 10 So when those came who were hired first, they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius. 11 When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner. 12 ‘These who were hired last worked only one hour,’ they said, ‘and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.’

13 “But he answered one of them, ‘I am not being unfair to you, friend. Didn’t you agree to work for a denarius? 14 Take your pay and go. I want to give the one who was hired last the same as I gave you. 15 Don’t I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?’

16 “So the last will be first, and the first will be last.”

[Elok]

I think I'd be far more likely to be able to accept that theory if it wasn't for the huge punishment hanging over anyone failing to find their way. A bus hits a three year old who had they not been hit by a bus would have found god. That three year old is presumably doomed for eternity, no? How about the example I used with jon earlier about rainforest tribes who don't have the same access to the bible as most others? Or people born in muslim countries who are brought up to believe in Allah instead?

Basically the playing field is completely unbalanced and unfair to vast numbers of humans, so how can that be a reasonable expectation to put upon us?

In the OC, at least, we're forbidden to speculate on where any particular person goes after death (we pursue a minimalist, "apophatic" approach to theology). I don't know that any one of those examples would, in fact, go to hell. Certainly I can't guess without knowing all their life experiences, which is why it's God's place to judge, not ours. As a matter of fact, we're not entirely clear about whether hell is even eternal, or what exactly it consists of; there are church fathers who maintain that universal reconciliation is possible, and ones who don't. Some say hell is the effect of the energies of God upon sinners, while others say it's the absence of those energies. Really our answer to everything is a shrug (in the form of the phrase "God has mercy"), so probably talking to me will just irritate you further. 'Course, that's one of the things I like about my church, that we don't try to understand the inexplicable.

[Jon Miller]

This thread will inevitably turn into a fustercluck, because the Xian community on Poly consists of a completely heterogeneous mass of believers, and no two denominations agree exactly on what hell is. Also, trying to guess what reasons an omnipotent, omniscient, immortal and time-transcending intelligence may have for a given decision...that would seem to be a fairly pointless endeavor. You're setting yourself up for frustration and/or faulty conclusions there. The answers to a lot of your questions are going to be a shrug. However, be that as it may...

WRT what Jon said, consider the story of Adam and Eve. Don't bother over whether they're supposed to be two literal people or an allegory for humanity or whatever. But consider it. They are both plainly aware of God's existence. He's given them clear instructions to follow and walks and talks with Adam all the time. That does nothing to prevent the Fall. Indeed, it incites the Fall; Eve eats the fruit at least partly because she resents divine authority, because the Serpent (Satan? Somebody else? An allegory? Does it matter?) tells her that God doesn't want her to be wise like Him.

Fast-forward however many years, Jesus tells the story of the Prodigal Son. The Son wishes to go out on his own, so he takes his inheritance and leaves to "a far-off country," at least in KJV. Where is the far-off country? It's right here. We declared independence from God, and He let us go. We're on our own, making our own choices, generally screwing them up. But He lets us, because that's what we wanted. If He were to intrude, make his presence perfectly clear and obvious, would that help? I don't think so. Certainly not in a culture such as ours, which prioritizes individual freedom. We'd revolt en masse, far more than we do already.

A lot of us say we want to be reunited to God. I think very few of us really mean it. We would like it insofar as we think of it as a Good Thing to be desired in the abstract, but we want it on our terms. Just look at what a lot of us make of Him: not a king or overlord making commands, but a sort of buddy or cool dude to chillax with or whatever daft things people say these days about the eternal logos. I myself, when I think of God, tend to think of the nice old grandfather and not of all the things He wants me to do but I regularly ignore. In short, I, like everybody else, make an idol of God, substituting my image for the real thing because I like the image. And He lets me, because that's what I want. Do I hear from God when I pray to the idol? No. Why should I? I'm not talking to Him, and it's rude to interrupt.

All the bad, shallow or vulgar things we do--fooling around, watching stupid stuff on TV, talking **** about each other, getting wasted, wasting our money, wasting our time, wasting our lives--serve the purpose of encasing us in a wall of noise. We are, in effect, sticking our fingers in our ears and going LALALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU, not that we think of it that way. It's only when we make the slightest gesture to stop the noise, to obey God and show Him we want Him, that He becomes a presence in our lives. Understanding comes from obedience; to the extent Christianity has failed to enlighten us, it has failed because we failed first to be Christians.

For a far more eloquent phrasing of that general idea, and a lot of other stuff besides, see C.S. Lewis's "Till We Have Faces."

Good post, but CS Lewis is one of the most recommended authors outside of the Bible I think.

JM

[Elok]

Yeah, and he's recommended for a reason.

[Ben Kenobi]

If I give one person 1000 dollars and another 10000 dollars, should the person I gave 1000 dollars complain and reject my 1000 dollars because I didn't give him 10000 dollars?

The better argument is the parable of the talents. "From whom much is given, much more is expected."

[Ben Kenobi]

Elok:

Again, if heaven is eternal, than so is Hell, and no, universalism isn't correct. As Christ says, "

narrow is the road that leads to salvation, and few find it, broad is the road to destruction, and many take it."

[Kidlicious]

? So free will is the choice to give up your free will?

It is the ability to do so or not.